Find Ancestors

I'm so used to Barnards (and of course just about anybody else you can imagine) hiding under bizarre names that whenever possible, I don't even include a surname in the search. ;)

Given name (Ancestry's less likely to mess that up, but that doesn't mean they won't have), place of residence, approx. year and place of birth, parent's/parents' name(s) ... for 1881, occupation ... all are often more likely to work at Ancestry than sticking to a surname!

EvieBeavie - are you there? I need you!!!!

The marriage certificate has arrived and it is indeed my Ellen Marsland!!
Details are -
Marriage in Rotherhithe (which is close to Deptford)
Ellen Marsland, age 21, Spinster, Father:Edward Marsland, Fire wood dealer
Albert Bernard Richie, age 24, Bachelor, Sheet Iron Worker, Father:Robert Richie, Blacksmith

I know its my Ellen because the witnesses are Edward & Paulina Marsland & Ellen's father was Edward (who was a Fire wood dealer in 1901 census) and her Mother & Sister were Paulina which is a fairly unusual name.

Now the question is, is Albert Richie really Albert Barnard? (Like you suggested EvieBeavie). Albert Barnard's Father was Robert - Albert Richie has given his father as Robert. However, Robert Barnard was a Dock labourer in all of the census not a Blacksmith!!!

If its him, why would he have changed his name to get married but 4 years later in 1901, he is back to calling himself & his family Barnard. Indeed his first child, Margaret born in 1898 was registered as Barnard - would it help to buy her birth cert?

It still doesn't explain why I can't find his birth anywhere & I can't get the birth cert of any siblings because I don't think that he had any!!!!

I'd be really interested in what you think about it?

Oh my oh my oh my! I certainly am doing well on these Barnards! I think I just sorted Paula's too.

But wait -- I wasn't the one who discovered that Richie marriage, was I? No - that was Vivienne! A quick study, Vivienne. ;)

So, my assumption would be that Ellen, "wife" of Robert Barnard, was Ellen Richie, and Albert was her son. And Robert Barnard may or may not have been his father. Richie could have been Ellen's surname or her husband's surname, and Albert born outside marriage, in a first marriage or after the breakdown of that marriage.

Richie would be his real name, but he was always called Barnard because of Ellen & Robert's domestic relationship, Robert being his stepfather or possibly real father. This is really exceedingly common. But he used his "official" name when he married, and then reverted back to what he considered to be his name thereafter.

I have to get some work done -- will have a poke around for Ellen and Albert later on. Meanwhile - Vivienne?? Congratulations, and get back to work!

i have been working you cheeky blighter evie
studying all your findings after my initial find!!

For the pot, then:

Marriages Dec 1865
Allbones Rebecca Greenwich 1d 1262
? Andrews Ellen Greenwich 1d 1262
? Ritchie Andrew Greenwich 1d 1262
Woods Peter Greenwich 1d 1262

Blimey, how quick your minds work - well done!!!

I'm just going to eat my dinner but will be back soon & I'll try to have a dig around too but I bet I'm not as fast you!!

Paula must be pleased as well

A great big thank you, Sue

EvieBeavie - I love that marriage!!! You are soooooooo clever!!

My omelette is burning!!!!

But the thing is, Robert Barnard and Ellen are together in 1871, before Albert's birth:

Name: Ellen Bornick
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Name: Robert Bornick
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
Town: Deptford
Registration district: Greenwich
Civil Parish: St Nicholas Deptford

Robert Bornick 39
Ellen Bornick 28

(It's really obviusly Barnard)

Stop that, Sue! Vivienne found that marriage. She is exceedingly clever indeed.


oh - you mean the Andrews-Ritchie marriage. Just a bone for the pot!

oh ho ho
allbones in the pot too?
this one will take more than my small skills too unravel i think so
bye ee

Closest I find


Births Dec 1874
Richer Albert Edward Greenwich 1d 826


1851 ........

Name: Ellen Richer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Heaver, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Bromley

Henry Reed 26
Emma Reed 26
Henry Reed 2
Martha Reed 8 Mo
Ellen Richer 12

Just all for the pot


1861

Name: Ellen Ritchie
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Robert
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Female
Where born: Goodnestone, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Goodnestone
Registration district: Eastry

>> Robert Ritchie 50 - gardener
Hannah Ritchie 50
Ellen Ritchie 19
Alexander Ritchie 12
William Ritchie 9
Henry W Plumptre 25


Very common for children of unmarried women to name maternal grandfathers as fathers on marriage.

What's this Allbones and why did it ring a bell -- I mean it did with me?

allbones

Marriages Dec 1865
Allbones Rebecca Greenwich 1d 1262
? Andrews Ellen Greenwich 1d 1262
? Ritchie Andrew Greenwich 1d 1262
Woods Peter Greenwich 1d 1262

I knooooow. Why are we noticing Allbones?

Allbones-Barnard?
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1098561

And that one is yet more Mitchells in Sussex, a name recently in the news ...
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1127505&px=2
Quick, fetch Lindsey. ;)

I think that you are both clever - and Vivienne can speak Welsh!!!

Now there is so much in the pot, I don't know what to think but I'll try to work it out!!!

Just to let you know that we can rule out the Ellen Ritchie from Goodnestone, Kent. There is a GR member researching her & she has kindly confirmed that Ellen was in Gloucestershire in 1871 & married Charles Dobson Smith in 1881.

Thats one out of that big pot...............

I kind of like the Richer ones.


Births Dec 1874
Richer Albert Edward Greenwich 1d 826


1851

Name: Ellen Richer
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Heaver, Kent, England
Civil Parish: Bromley


Who could be entirely unrelated. ;)

Oh ... and except that I don't know what that 1851 census says, but by me it sure isn't "Richer". There's actually no chance in the world that it's "Richer". Pilver, maybe.


Albert Edward Richer doesn't appear in any record -- b, m, d, census -- after that birth.

I think maybe ............

Ellen Richer in 1851 census is Ellen Piper

The only possible Ellen to be born in that period in the right area is

Ellen Elizabeth Marden Piper
Dec Q 1838
Sevenoaks (Hever is in this Reg District)

In the 1841 census, she is living with her parents in Brasted which is just a few miles from Hever.

Do you think that's her EvieBeavie? Still not sure what that proves tho?
Shall I just order Albert Edward Richer's birth cert even though he was Albert William Barnard or Albert Bernard Richie?