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In 1911, both Edith the sister and Frederick the eldest brother are living with their own families in Walthamstow, now did William/Arthur go there after his first wife had died??? It would make sense to go to family when you have 2 children to look after.

Also the youngest son on the 1891 census, Sidney Victoria Gabriel, he marries in 1915 and there are 2 possible sons born to him............. guess where their births are registered, West Ham!!


Dee x

Chris I still think we're on the right track, this is the 1901 census of the Eldest brother and some of the children;

1901 England Census
about Albert Gabriel
Name: Albert Gabriel
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow <<<<<<<<<< Is this why the address???
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 191
Household Members: Name Age
William Sturt 50
Hannah Sturt 39
Frederick Gabriel 23
Edith Gabriel 24
Edith Gabriel 19
Albert Gabriel 13
Mary Robertson 23
Nellie Robertson 2

Hi Chris,

Let's just recap on what we have.

1. 2nd marriage cert. (A W Gabriel marries E Hampton, his father named as Frederick Charles Gabriel)

2. Mums birth cert. (parents named as? Sinclair and ? Wilson)

3. 1st marriage cert. (W Sinclair marries A Wilson, his father named as Charles Sinclair)

Chris I think you've now got to decide what you know as Definate......... his 2nd marriage, your Mums birth cert, the 1st marriage? Does the info tie in? You seem positive that the 2nd marriage is correct...... is your Mums birth cert correct? If so do the parents names tie in from that with that 1st marriage?

I think we've basically got to go from the "Definate" answers, hopefully this will lead us in the correct direction then.

Speak soon, Dee xx

Hi Chris,

Sorry about the delay getting back to you. Just wanting some more info from the 1st marriage cert, Address from where they married from, William Sinclairs occupation and is the occupation of his deceased father on there?

I'll have another dig about and see what turns up.


Dee x

Private is a rank in the army I think. I wonder if RF is Royal Fuseliers?(spelling?)

Hi Dee
just letting you know i have finally got the wedding certificate for william sinclair and ada wilson married in 1910 at whitechael his father was charles sinclair and her father was thomas wilson both deceased.
wittnest by mary helen sorry cat make last name out and william james fitmas,
i also recieved my grandmothers death certificate september1917 and it reads the wife of william sinclair. A Private R F not sure what that means, i wonder if this is when he changed his name to gabriel???.
i also recieved the 2nd marriage certificate for arthur william gabriel and edith hampton they were widows his father was frederich charles gabriel and her father was arthur pitcher both deceased , i realy am confussed by this i dont think this the same man,
Sorry i have gone on kind regards Chriss

Looks like Francis Gs' death;

Deaths Jun 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gabriel Frank George 11 Hackney 1b 275


I still can't see Arthur or Sidney, however they were still young enough to be "taken in" and stated as the carers children.


Sidney Victoria Gabriel marries in 1915, Poplar. I can't see him on the 1911 census either.

The more I think about it the more I think they were taken in, maybe by the Sinclair family????


Dee x

Hi Chris,

Well we know that Frederick Charles Gabriel was his brother, could it also have been his fathers name too??

We'll wait and see what other info is on the other certs........... hopefully they will be alittle more revealing.


Dee x

Hi DEE
Just letting you know the marriage certificate of my grandfather and his 2wife as arrived, arthur w Gabriel 34yrs widower edith hampton 38yrs widow residence at the time of marriage 34 Arkley Road walthamstow Arthur fathers name Frederick charles gabriel, ediths father Arthur Pitcher both deceased that was back in 1918.

On my mothers marriage certificate it has the same address she was married in june 1944 i cant help but wonder?

I am still waiting for the other certificates 2 arrive god know what awaites me of 4 a drink of tea now speak soon and kind regards Chris

Could these be the parents deaths??? ages are alittle out;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GABRIEL Emily 40 Hackney 1b 310

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Mar 1897 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GABRIEL Charles 45 Hackney 1b 337




I wonder if the other children were put into homes of some description???



Dee x

I think I've found some of the family in 1901;

1901 England Census
about Edith Gabriel
Name: Edith Gabriel
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil parish: Walthamstow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 191
Household Members: Name Age
William Sturt 50 (Image says STUART)
Hannah Sturt 39
Frederick Gabriel 23 son in law, occupation HOUSE PAINTER
Edith Gabriel 24 freds wife
Edith Gabriel 19 born Hackney
Albert Gabriel 13 born Hackney
Mary Robertson 23 lodger
Nellie Robertson 2 lodger



Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1899

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brown Frederick Charles Hackney 1b 998
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gabriel Fredrick Charles Hackney 1b 998
Poole Edith Louisa Hackney 1b 998
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stewart Edith Constance Hackney 1b 998




So now there's the parents missing, Arthur, Francis and Sydney.



Dee x

Hi Denise
Thanks again for all your info i have just sent you a msg sorry i forgot about this reply, i am following up this info i am not still sure about arthur william sinclair, my mother always claimed he was a deserter from the 1st ww however i am trying to get info also about this ie his army records i hope this will comfirm my thoughs did he get leave when his wife died that would of been my mums mum ada sarah i will let you know i am wondering if this is when he changed his name according to my mum he went under about 3 different sir names could gabriel been 1 of them i realy dont know at this moment in time? again Kind Regards Chriss

1891 England Census
about Ada Wilson
Name: Ada Wilson
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Paddington
Sub-registration district: St Mary Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Wilson 27 born Marylebone.... Occupation Porter (railway)
Sarah Wilson 24 born Woolwich, Kent
Ada Wilson 1


I'm hoping this is the correct line for the Wilson side, however until you have the marriage cert I'll leave it here.

I still can't find the Sinclair family in 1911 though.


Dee x

Maybe??

1901 England Census
about Ada Wilson
Name: Ada Wilson
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Sarah
Gender: Female
Where born: Marylebone, London, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Christchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 363
Household Members: Name Age
John Wilson 36 <<<<<<<<< furniture porter
Sarah Wilson 33
Ada Wilson 11
Florence Wilson 9
Alice Wilson 3

A possible birth for your Grandmother???

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

Births Sep 1889 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wilson Ada Sarah Marylebone 1a 564

A son for Arthur and Ada???

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Mar 1911 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sinclair Arthur W Whitechapel 1c 219

With a little help from a tree on ancestry, is this Arthurs marriage????


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1910
----------------------------
FREWIN William Frederick Whitechapel 1c 358
HALE Eliza Whitechapel 1c 358
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SINCLAIR William Whitechapel 1c 358
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Wilson Ada Whitechapel 1c 358


Your Mothers birth reg;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Sep 1912
------------------
Sinclair Agnes A Wilson Whitechapel 1c 454




Do you have your Grandparents marriage certificate??? If not I would take a gamble and see if this is the correct marriage cert, hopefully it will confirm his fathers name and occupation, the witnesses maybe of help too.


Dee x

Hi Chris,

His birth??

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1884 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gabriel Arthur William Hackney 1b 547




1891 England Census
about Arthur Gabriel
Name: Arthur Gabriel
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Charles
Mother's Name: Emily
Gender: Male
Where born: Hackney, London, England

Civil parish: Hackney
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabus
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 45
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Gabriel 44
Emily Gabriel 35
Frederick Gabriel 12
Edith Gabriel 8
Arthur Gabriel 6
Franics G Gabriel 5
Albert Gabriel 2
Sydney Gabriel 1


Dee x

I can't find Charles & Emily Gabriel (or Sinclair) on the 1881, can anyone else see them?

Not what you asked for but might will add anyway

Marriages Sep 1875

GABRIEL Charles Bethnal Green 1c 504
Lyddon William Bethnal Green 1c 504
REEVES Emily Bethnal Green 1c 504
SMITH Emma Bethnal Green 1c 504