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Recently i decided to get my mothers birth cert which when recived things wernt quite what i expected, ie all her life she claimed to be alice a barr.b1911 medway ,but it turns out that she was in fact alice a caldwell. so i then sent for her fathers wedding cert and got yet another shock. Her father was frederick frank caldwell b1883 scullcoats hull.he according to my mother was illigitimate,and in early life went by his mothers name caldwell, but im finding him difficult to track down for a birth cert, on his wedding cert it has his father william caldwell,but we have only ever known his step dad albert barr.and so now thers another prob if william is dad and mother is agnes caldwell is all this name changing because they were related in some way? As in 1891 and 1901 ive found him as frank barr.my mums bith cert he is frank barr.but on wedding cert he is Frank caldwell. later in life he becomes frank caldwell-bar and his kids all have different surnames like mums older brothers are barr,mums a caldwell, and the rest are caldwell-barr all medway kent. but try all these different combinations i still cant find his birth? can anyone help? cheers Dave

Could the B in this birth stand for Barr?

Births Sep 1883 (>99%)
Hendry Frederick Frank B Sculcoates 9d 186

Is this your mother's birth - does the C stand for Caldwell?
Births Mar 1911 (>99%)
Barr Alice A C Medway 2a 758

What is the mother's maiden name?

Thanks potty- looks good how did you do that? ive spent hours searching ancestry.

yes thats mum, well it must do!! i thought at first it was for caldwell-barr but was not the case on real cert

Where on your mother's birth certificate does Caldwell appear. Is it in the column under "Name, if any"? And is the father's name given as Frank Barr? If so, she was Alice A Caldwell Barr. The Caldwell is a third christian name, not her surname.

on her birth cert it has her as alice adele caldwell, but her father as frank barr her mother alice savage

David,

I found the birth on freebmd - entered just the first names, Frederick Frank, 1883 for year and selected Sculcoates for the District. It was the only one that came up.

The search facility on freebmd is much better than Ancestry's!

no 2nd col alice adele colwell crosed out caldwell underneath. 4th col frank barr

so alice adele caldwell on cert are all christian names and her surname is the barr under her father,s col?

thanks for help potty

Which of these marriages have you got for her parents:
Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%)
BARR Frederick Frank Medway 2a 1318
SAVAGE Alice Adele Medway 2a 1318

Marriages Dec 1906 (>99%)
CALDWELL Frank Chelsea 1a 856
SAVAGE Alice Adele Chelsea 1a 856

If you haven't got Frederick's Frank's birth cert how do you know his YOB and POB?

Frederick in 1901 ( in the Army)
Frederick Frank Barr
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Private
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: East Stonehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: East Stonehouse
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: East Stonehouse
Sub-registration district: East Stonehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: Royal Marine Barracks
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Charles J Baker 22
William Baker 17
Albert J Banks 26
Frederick Frank Barr 21

David,

If you haven't got that 1909 marriage cert, I would send for it.

Have you managed to get back further with Alice Savage?

There are several in 1901 who could be her. Some in Chelsea and some in Kent!

This could be Frank's birth on Yorkshire BMD site

1883

CALDWELL Frank Myton Hull MYT/140/266

Andy

Marriage ???

Agnes Caldwell
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 941

Alfred Henry Barr

Andy

Frank, Agnes and Alfred 1891:
Frank Barr
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Alfred
Mother's Name: Agnes - born Leith, Scotland
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, North
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Barr 30
Alfred Barr 31
Frank Barr 8

If this is him, where did Frederick in his name come from?

all my info came from my mums sister sylvia, about her father and bits from mum . the dates she got were writen down in a diary left to her by her father .
i have the 1906 wedding , frank was in royal marines yes based at stonehouse he was a private /barber.
yes i will check out that other looks interesting !! have just sent off for alice savage birth ill open tree for you to look at but sorry be back on here later as gotta go out now cheers dave

David

The two marriages could be for the same couple. If Frederick/Frank was in the army, he would have need permission to marry and would have needed to produce his marriage cert for his wife to claim money if he was posted abroad. Quite a lot of couples found it easier to marry again than to find and produce the marriage cert.

This looks like Agnes Caldwell in 1871 - living in Sculcoates:
1871 England Census
about Agnes Caldwell
Name: Agnes Caldwell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Walter
Mother's Name: May
Gender: Female
Where born: Leith, Scotland

Civil Parish: Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Caldwell 8
Edward Caldwell 3
Jane Caldwell 14
Marion Caldwell 6
May Caldwell 34
Thomas Caldwell 12
Walter Caldwell 35
Walter Caldwell 10