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Great Ashley, so glad they were the right ones for you--
All the best
Barbara

thanks. Didnt know alot of these facts. Thanks For all you hard work..

I'll bet that Joseph 1902 in the 1911 is this one!


Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
Cooper Joseph Whiting W. Derby 8b 301

hi. I firs would like to respond to barbara

hi bruceabt1959, It would be nice if the 1911 for Thomas was right, I think it is for the Thomas I found in 1911 (whether its Ashleys Thomas is another thing ) as I found Thomas and Louisa in 1901 census with their 2 eldest childern --Eliza and Maud--and they were definate COOPER.
I do hope Ashley comes back to his thread and lets us know either way if he recognises any of the names !! Or if he knows if Louisa did marry Thomas.
Of course without the certificates, its anyones guess.
Cheers Bruce
Barbara

Yes i do recognise the names you said above. That is thomas and louisa in the 11901 census. And if that is them in the 1911 cencus the you have gave us another headache with the name of Joseph Son M 9 1902 Liverpool. because we thought the others mau louisa eliza william and george are the only ones. And yes thomas did marry elizas sister.

Oh dear ==I may have got it wrong Ashley maybe a lady and not a man!!
Sorry Ashley If I got it wrong, but I was only trying to help, and i do try and help whether female or male :-) so I do hope these are the right ones for you
All the best
Barbara x

It's lucky censuses give the sex of individuals ... I've been assuming Ashley is a she, lol!

The brothers marrying sisters certainly does look like likely.

hi bruceabt1959, It would be nice if the 1911 for Thomas was right, I think it is for the Thomas I found in 1911 (whether its Ashleys Thomas is another thing ) as I found Thomas and Louisa in 1901 census with their 2 eldest childern --Eliza and Maud--and they were definate COOPER.
I do hope Ashley comes back to his thread and lets us know either way if he recognises any of the names !! Or if he knows if Louisa did marry Thomas.
Of course without the certificates, its anyones guess.
Cheers Bruce
Barbara

good show, Barbara


for further info

Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
Cooper Joseph Whiting W. Derby 8b 301

Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
COOPER John Whiting W. Derby 8b 436

Maybe 1881 census for the FRANKHAM family?


Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Charles FRANKHAM Head M Male 39 Keynsham, Somerset, England Stone Mason
Ejbya FRANKHAM Wife M Female 37 Liverpool
Jamima FRANKHAM Daur U Female 18 Liverpool Housewife
Charles H. FRANKHAM Son U Male 16 Liverpool Assistant Bottler (Cellarman)
John W. FRANKHAM Son U Male 14 Bolton Baker
Ellen E. FRANKHAM Daur U Female 12 Bolton Scholar
George R. FRANKHAM Son U Male 10 Liverpool Scholar
>>> Eliza FRANKHAM Daur U Female 8 Liverpool Scholar
>>> Louisa FRANKHAM Daur U Female 5 Liverpool Scholar
Alfred FRANKHAM Son U Male 3 Liverpool
Jamima RIMMER Mother In Law M Female 55 Dublin, Ireland
William RIMMER Brother In Law U Male 27 Liverpool Blacksmith

Source Information:
Dwelling 7 Back South Chester St
Census Place Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341871
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3639 / 83
Page Number 3

Do you know if this is Thomas marriage index? Did he marry Eliza's sister ?

Marriages Sep 1897
Cannan Abraham Toxteth Park 8b 443
>>COOPER Thomas Toxteth Park 8b 443
>>>Frankham Louisa Toxteth Park 8b 443
Jones Catherine Johnson Toxteth Park 8b 443

Ashley, Do you think this MAYBE Thomas in the 1911 census ? It looks like COOPER on the original scan.

1911 census transcription details for: 61 Every Street Liverpool
National Archive Reference:
RG14PN22553 RG78PN1326 RD455 SD9 ED1 SN266

Reg. District: West Derby Sub District: West Derby Western
Parish: West Derby Enum. District: 1
Address: 61 Every Street Liverpool
County: Lancashire
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation Where Born
COOGEN, Thomas Head Married M 46 1865 Porter Liverpool
COOGEN, Lousia Wife Married 10 years F 36 1875 Liverpool
COOGEN, Eliza Daughter F 13 1898 School Liverpool
COOGEN, Maud Daughter F 11 1900 School Liverpool
COOGEN, Joseph Son M 9 1902 Liverpool
COOGEN, Lousia Daughter F 6 1905 Liverpool
COOGEN, William Son M 4 1907 Liverpool
COOGEN, George Son M 1 1910 Liverpool

It looks as if their mum Jane died in 1881

Deaths Sep (quarter) 1881
COOPER Jane
age 42
W.Derby 8b 255
----------------------------------------------

and George remarried in

Marriages Mar 1886 (>99%)
Allan Joseph George W. Derby 8b 479
>>>>>COOPER George W.Derby 8b 479
FISHER Elizabeth Vaughan W. Derby 8b 479
>>>>>>Spencer Ellen West Derby 8b 479
------------------------------------------------------------------------


And then 1891 Census----

Name: Joseph W Cooper
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Benedict
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: South Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
George Cooper 53
Ellen Cooper 41
Thomas Cooper 28
Joseph W Cooper 23
Ernest Spencer 19
Percy Spencer 18
Ellen Spencer 13
Jane Spencer 10
Edith Spencer 7

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2946; Folio 16; Page 25; GSU roll: 6098056.

Spot on, bruceabt1959, This looks like the 1881 census for the family ?

Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
George COOPER Head M Male 43 Chesworth, Derby, England Cotton Warehouseman
Jane COOPER Wife M Female 42 Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Thomas COOPER Son U Male 17 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Apprentice Watch Jeweller
Joseph W. COOPER Son U Male 12 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Scholar

Source Information:
Dwelling 31 Rutland St
Census Place Everton, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341879
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3671 / 120
Page Number 35

I did wonder because the 1901 birth that I put above seemed to clash with the younger Joseph in 1911.

There is no death for a Joseph Cooper born c1901 between 1901 and 1911 in West Derby.

However, I suspect Whiting was Joseph's mother's name, and so another sibling could have named a child Joseph Whiting Cooper.

Father was George, Ashley said (which matches well with the son in 1911) --

Marriages Dec 1858 (>99%)
Anderson Caroline Liverpool 8b 249
? Cooper George Liverpool 8b 249
Reed John Liverpool 8b 249
? Whiting Jane Liverpool 8b 249

Ashley likely knows all these things and is not saying them, not realizing they are all useful for a search like this.

Hi Ashley

As there is a birth for Joseph Whiting Cooper 1901 ( and if he was Joseph W's and Eliza's son ) then I am not sure of the 1911 census !!

As this birth is recorded which matches the 1911 census for Joseph George Cooper

Births Mar 1907 (>99%)
COOPER Joseph George F
W. Derby 8b 476

What do you think ?

Did you search at FreeBMD for births (from 1911 onward) with surname Cooper and mother Frankham?

There are four, two of which are in West Derby, 1913 and 1914.

The question for Eliza, for searching for them, is born when.

Births Mar 1874 (>99%)
Frankham Eliza W. Derby 8b 333

Matches that 1911 record!

eliza was born in liverpool and had 4 brothewrs and 2 sisters.

thanks barbara. that could be him . you are a star.

His name on the marriage to Eliza Frankham is Joseph Whiting Cooper.

You search for that name at FreeBMD

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

and you get

Births Jun 1868 (>99%)
COOPER Joseph Whiting Liverpool 8b 64

Marriages Mar 1894 (>99%)
Cooper Joseph Whiting W. Derby 8b 770

Births Dec 1901 (>99%)
Cooper Joseph Whiting W. Derby 8b 301

and voilà.

Birth, marriage and son, I would think.