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This thread is not about Syria, it is about how the issue has been handled by the Prime Minister - if you want to discuss Syria use this thread:-
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1330395
In my opinion among the many skills a Prime Minster needs are those of sound judgement and the ability to effectively manage difficult issues. When I look at the way David Cameron has handled the Syrian issue, if I was him I would take his judgement and management skills and give them to someone to lock them away in the vaults of The Tower of London - where he could not access them.
If I gave a dozen primary school children paint brushes and tins of paint and then left them alone in a room with white walls, they could not create a bigger mess than David Cameron has created for himself over the issue.
The language being used in 10 Downing Street, following yesterdays intervention by Ed Milliband and pressure from numerous Conservative MP's, must be turning the air blue ;-)
In his rushed, some might say knee jerk reaction, resulting in his ill thought out plan, to show that he is a major player on the world stage, he has not only lost control over the Syrian issue but he has also lost control over his own party.
All David Cameron has achieved over the last week is that there will be four debates on Syria, two debates in the House of Commons and two debates in the House of Lords, as both MP's and Peers will have to go over everything they are discussing today all over again next week. Perhaps if David Cameron had thought things through properly in the first place there would have been no need to recall Parliament as it was due to return from the summer recess this coming Monday - recalling Parliament costs a lot of money.
The debacle that has resulted from this, has left David Cameron with egg all over his face, and in about 5 minutes time when he stands at the Dispatch Box in the House of Commons, to defend his stance on Syria, I have no doubt that as he squirms and splutters while he tries to wriggle out of the hole he himself dug, his argument will be his favourite excuse "I did not cause this mess - it was Labour"
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OFITG is entirely correct.
Given the utter shambles it makes one wonder if Clegg/Cameron are indeed fit and proper people to run the country at all and as OFITG says the issue is government not any particular policy.
However using policy to illustrate Brave Daves love of the land of appeasement we have (a) the badger cull - appease the farmers whatever hard science says (b) the flip flop flip flop of EU policy this way and that (c) pleasing Alex Salmond. And so on and on. To take a phrase from another PM is is not joined up government.
Before the foolish bill for fixed term parliaments the executive could always make an important issue a "vote of confidence" i.e. defeat in the House would result in fresh elections within weeks. This has gone and in reality cabinet government with it.
Diana Abbot and Ed Milliband have seen the opportunity for vox populism and jumped in with both left feet. Being both beginners and not especially English they seem blithely unaware that the Tories will exact revenge at some point.
There are also very sound reasons why the power to wage war remains with the executive not the legislature. They could hardly be more crystal.
As it is Brave Dave does not actually need any sort of populist vote in the Commons. He is locked into seeking one due to a rampant right wing being completely out of control. At some future time Milliband may be enjoying a left wing bloc of 60 MPs led by Diana Abbot and the Tories destroying policy at every turn... Politics is not a court though Milliband seems to think it is.
That is exactly how the Third and Fourth French Repubics came to grief or how Italy transformed its government into a running joke..
Now HMG may soon have to choose between wrecking 75 years of US/UK defence cooperation and handing the Commons over to populism. Another PM once said "governments govern, if you can't do that then leave this place".
Maybe some people believe that we can trust our security to Baroness Ashton and the EU, especially our allies of centuries the French and Germans. Maybe some people believe that the world is safe in the control of Comrade Putin, Chairman Assad and Ayatollah Khomeini and the UN will ensure that the right thing is done.
I don't.
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My old age must be affecting my hearing as I am sure I just heard the Prime Minister say that the proposed military intervention in Syria, has nothing to do with deposing Assad:-S has nothing to do with regime change:-S and that it will not pose any serious risk of increasing the terrorist threat from Muslim extremists :-S what about other terrorists :-S
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Anyone spot the flying pig
Roy
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RolloTheRed - you male many good points, I can't help think that events in Downing Street over he past 24 hours would make an excellent script for an episode of Yes Prime Minister :-D
Porkie_Pie - Roy you need to get down to Westminster Bridge or Parliament Square, there are dozens of them flying around ;-)
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I agree with many of the points above. A mess indeed, but I don't think the current incumbents are the only ones to have behaved 'recklessly' or pandered to populism (although DC does seem to have a particular talent) - it seems to be the trend. Knee-jerk reactions. Dog whistle politics. Trouble is, each lot only have a relatively short time to implement their policies, so it all tends to short-termism.
I really can't see a long-term future for traditional party politics but don't know what could replace it :-D
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Well one thing is won't do is to increase the likelihood of "Islamic" terrorism in the UK. That is because the many groups which are loosely described as Al Queda want nothing more than to see Assad and his henchmen on the end of a piece of rope.
Shi'ite terrorism is a contradiction in terms - this branch of Islam does not go in for the sort of thing that the Wahabis, Taliban and so on subscribe to. Assad and his regime are Alawites, a Shi'ite heresy. My vet is Shia, the kindest person I have ever met.
Assad is a Ba'athist made from the same mould as his father, Nasser, Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak. They see themselves as modernists and like most leaders with right on their side see no problem with any amount of cruelty. Their adherence to any religion is as sincere as that of Stalin to the Orthodox church.
To threaten terrorism though is nonsense. It is also irrational to fear terrorism from this regime.
Rudyard Kipling once said that east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet. I have spent a large chunk of my life in the east.
The sort of nuanced legalistic politics beloved of Foggy Bottom, Carlton Terrace and terraced houses in Islington has no traction at all. Either you are tough brave and strong or you or not. If you are not you are a loser.
That is why Putin is popular in Russia and why he is so obdurate now. Being "reasonable" would just destroy his power base.
That is also why Assad will be a recidivist user of chemical weapons if he is not stopped as he will see Cameron / Obama as losers.
And most of all Iran will be watching as closely as a cat watches a mouse. Any sign of weakness and years of careful pressure designed to steer Iran away from a nuclear weapons will be dead.
That is the true raison d'etre for this action which both Obama and Cameron would prefer to avoid. Not the fate of dead civilians. Not regime change.
OFITG suggests that Brave Dave has handled the matter badly and so he has. I suggest that the Commons as a whole has pretty well touched bottom including Ed Milliband.
A few months ago I posted that sacking chief whip Andrew Mitchell without any real evidence was a big mistake. So it has proven. Andrew was smeared by a resentful police force. George Young is utterly useless at the job.
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