General Chat

Bob, really, come on. I didn't ask you whether it was worth saying something about secure storage, did I? No, I didn't. So let's not pretend I did. I said it was completely pointless to say that guns by themselves don't kill anybody. I'm not a complete moron. I know that. I'm not psychotic. I don't believe that objects have minds of their own. I don't think anybody reading is a complete moron or psychotic.

My point about "gun owner's wife" ... oh, well, sometimes I wonder ... women own guns, too you know. And not only lesbians.


And back to the nub of it: "they" can mean whatever they like about "secure".

Gwynne said it, and I said it: a law is only as good as *the rate of compliance with it*.

Laws don't lock up guns by themselves, you know.


"they DID ban handguns in the uk. but that hasnt stopped the illegal owners has it? at least, before handguns were banned the police had a very good idea of who owned what and where, but now they dont have a clue!"

I despair of sense and civil discourse sometimes, I do.

The handgun ban in the UK was not intended to stop illegal handgun ownership.

And for pity's sake, really, for pity's sake. Yes, the police had a very good idea of who *legally* owned handguns. They had no more idea of who *illegally* owned handguns then than they do now. And they would have no more idea of who *illegally* owned handguns now, if there were no ban on legal ownership, than they do with a ban.

Or do you think they would? How? By mind-reading?

The police knowing who legally owns handguns doesn't stop anybody from obtaining handguns illegally, does it?


"when ever an incident this occurs, it brings out the Lets BAN guns lobby."

Actually, the way I see it, is whenever an incident occurs, it brings out the people who want to bang on about the "let's ban guns lobby".

Janey, I know what you are saying but you mis read me...........by secure they mean that NO ONE un entitled can get hold of them and if the wife has access to keys then the gun cabinet is NOT secure.and yes I DID think it worth saying.

when ever an incident this occurs, it brings out the Lets BAN guns lobby.

they DID ban handguns in the uk. but that hasnt stopped the illegal owners has it? at least, before handguns were banned the police had a very good idea of who owned what and where, but now they dont have a clue!


Bob

Bob: "guns by themselves dont kill people, its people carrying guns that kill other people"

Is this actualy something worth saying? Are there really people in this world who believe that guns kill people by themselves? If there are, would we not ordinarily regard those people -- and any people who think that objects act of their own volition -- as psychotic?

I'm not psychotic. So I don't know why you'd think it necessary to say that to me. It just doesn't advance the conversation.


"the law here says that they will be stored safely and securely"

Indeed. The law also says you shall not drive over the speed limit. I fully support those laws (which we also have here in Canada). Laws and behaviour are different. Not everybody obeys laws.


"a gun keepers wife is not allowed to know where the keys are kept"

Uh, yeah. "A gun keeper's wife". Watch out, or somebody will be accusing you of blaming men for all evil in the world ...


"what really gets me is that in the states there hardly seems to be any responsibility with the gun owners keeping their stuff secure"

You are very right on that. And where there are storage laws, they kick in only *after* some harm has occurred -- not storing your firearm secure from children isn't illegal, it's only illegal if the child shoots somebody!

Laws don't make people do anything -- but they can go a long way, over time, to influencing people's behaviour. Both because ordinary, law-abiding people tend to abide by the law, and because they can have educational effects, especially if combined with safety campaigns -- as with drunk driving, for instance.



I've been meaning to say, on the storage/theft aspect: do we all remember Tony Martin? (For anybody who doesn't, or who at some point got the wrong end of the stick: he was the foul racist who murdered a teenager by shooting him in the back.) My understanding is that one of the targets of the youths who burgled his property was his guns, which he was well known for.

If the law concerning storage of guns isn't kept by parents then children get hold of guns.

A few years ago a child at the same school as my son was shot and killed by her brother with her father's legally owned but improperly stored shotgun. Much safer not to allow people to have them at all. The exception being gamekeepers and farmers who might actually need to have them.

Guns do kill far too many people, guns were invented with the specific intention of killing people.

Gwynne

of course Janey we have a similar problem.............guns by themselves dont kill people, its people carrying guns that kill other people, you quote children getting hold of parents guns.. the law here says that they will be stored safely and securely, a gun keepers wife is not allowed to know where the keys are kept...if she DOES know then the law will react and the certificate will be revoked and a jail term is likely.

what really gets me is that in the states there hardly seems to be any responsibility with the gun owners keeping their stuff secure......children can far too easily get hold of a loaded gun apparently quite easily at times
sadly with devastating results........like three year olds killing their siblings...

Bob

btw Rose: "I was about to add that 'sentimentality' is a 'quality' ( or fault) generally brought up when someone's argument is running out of steam"

Yeah. Gunheads in the US are fond of mocking gun control advocates: "but it's for the chiiiildren". Well, it is. Children killed in crossfire, children killed by fathers with guns, children terrorized by fathers with guns, children who kill themselves and one another with their parents' guns, children (and yes, they may be unpleasant little thugs, but they are children) carrying guns and being killed by other children carrying guns. Not to mention the many more children injured by guns. Of course I'm responding to the gunheads in the US in this, mainly, and to a lesser extent in other countries, certainly including Canada -- and anywhere else; if firearms proliferate, the harm to children escalates.

I for one won't be mocked into submission on that one. ;)

That's the problem with urban wildlife -- that Toronto site says the same about foxes in Toronto. They just aren't afraid of people, so why not go in the house to see what might be on offer?

I've only ever seen a fox at my brother's rural property, and I think I like it that way.

Cat, since they have already killed the fox they caught, I would assume they will do some forensic tests...or maybe not ! they are leaving the traps there so no doubt guilty or innocent the foxes will be removed one way or the other.

Just exactly how do they propose to identify the fox who did it from all the other foxes?

Heh heh heh.

http://newsarse.com/2010/06/07/horseback-vigilantes-happy-to-hunt-down-twin-baby-attacker/

Horseback vigilantes happy to hunt down twin baby attacker

Across the country large groups of immaculately-attired horseback vigilantes have bravely proclaimed that they will not rest until they have apprehended and brought to justice the vicious fox accused of attacking 9 month-old twin girls in East London.

The girls, who are seriously ill but considered stable, were attacked by a fox which fled the scene leading to thousands of red-jacketed have-a-go heroes offering their expert tracking services.

One such volunteer explained, “That fox could already be as far away as the north of England, so it is imperative we arrange groups the length and breadth of the country to search out this evil attacker.”

“We have trained for years for just such an incident, and let me tell you, there is nobody better than us at bringing evil foxes to justice whilst blowing horns and looking spiffing.”

“Though I must warn you now, this search could last for years, with most Sundays from November onwards spent searching for him. We’ll take the summer off though, as it’s polo season.”

Justice

Huntsmen across the country have confirmed this latest incident shows what they have known all along, that foxes are evil and must be punished.

One hunt leader explained, “I am glad the world can now see foxes as we do - vermin that must be chased for miles and miles across fields and woodland before being torn apart by bloodthirsty hounds.”

“You either agree with us, or you think eating baby faces is perfectly acceptable. Which is it to be, hmm?”

“You know, you might find this all the more palatable if you just try to think of foxes as awful ginger dogs.”

So anyhow, just in case anyone's curious!

http://www.toronto.ca/animal_services/fox.htm

http://www.toronto.ca/animal_services/coyote.htm

If you look at Toronto on google maps satellite view, and look around highway 404 / the Don Valley Parkway, you can get an idea of the ravines in Toronto that are home to urban wildlife.

I've read about the growing urban coyote problem, but I've never actually heard anything about urban foxes. Where I am, we just have raccoons and skunks. And squirrels. Raccoons are entertaining ... there was that night a few years ago when we were sitting in our living room and heard a ripping sound followed by crunching sounds, to find a couple of them had torn through the patio screen door and were feasting on cat crunchies in the kitchen ... but what I hadn't realized until recently is that they're carnivores. The feral cats have been having their kittens in a neighbour's yard, and she's been having to deal with the remains of litters eaten by coons.

Raccoons know no fear and have the hugest sense of entitlement. At campgrounds, they will destroy tents and can open just about any container to get at food inside, and then just stare at you if you try to chase them off. They are particularly adept at garbage containers. With old-fashioned garbage cans, their race had perfected the art of perching on them and rocking them back and forth until they crashed over and spilled their treasure. Cities have had to be creative to invent containers for municipal compost pickup that are impervious to raccoons. Ours has a sort of double-lock system on the top.

Skunks, they'll just destroy your lawn looking for grubs. I regard this as reason enough to replant your yard in environmentally appropriate perennials and trees and abandon the whole lawn mentality. ;)

There was nothing contentious on it when I added that according to the news the mother saw the fox in the bedroom.

I wander off for lunch and it's gone.

Gwynne

which I would have done of course ;o) I was about to add that 'sentimentality' is a 'quality'
( or fault) generally brought up when someone's argument is running out of steam ...I do so hate being thought to be a sentimental, squeamish , bunny hugging old townie who has no experience of the countryside....

wild animals are just that of course...and speaking as one who has been savaged by a gerbil, even small ones can get scared ( or just plain vicious) and bite ;)

Or express some contrarian views, Rose. ;)

Odd, though, since it almost seemed designed to provoke contrarian views ...

Ment to add it was very interesting.

Gail

maybe it was felt we might digress from the main point? lol

At least I added to it and it was there for a whole 10 seconds then WOOOOOOSSSSSHHHH.


?????????? do not understand.

Gail

Eldrick's thread????

I just came back on to see if anyone had added to it. Thought I'd missed it when I scan read thread titles looking for it.

I do find it irritating to 'waste' my time adding when it is just gone in a flash like that lol...hey ho guess I had better go shopping instead.

xx

There I was reading an interesting thread that brought to mind the problem of coyotes in Toronto, when I moved on to page 2 and poof, it was gone.

Huh. What causes these glitches??