General Chat

Not sure for that far back Ann...sounds interesting though.....who were they with when they came back...were they old enough to be on their own?....maybe the parents died at sea?....how long have you been searching?.....have you looked at other peeps trees on Ancestry? what was his occupation at childrens marriages?...was Father deceased at any of them? Is it an unusual name that may have been mistranscribed?...have you asked on tips etc etc.etc....oooo I love a mystery!

~~~~to TW~~~~

You can borrow some of mine Karen as long as you don't give them back......

I think we should all help Ann find her GGrandfather...any offers and any ideas?

jot them down here!

whoops...just remembered it is a mass murderer thread ....oh well...we can always get back to that, he's not going anywhere lol

I love mysteries too, but not in MY tree!!!!

Abraham Allen (and there is at least one other in derbyshire.) Baptised Belper 3 April 1808, parents Thomas Allen and Lucy (Walters). married Ellen (also known as Helen) Nightingale at Duffield Parish church 23 March 1828.

Went to work in Strutts mill September 1818 after attending Strutts Mill School from 18 May 1818 until September 1818.

they had 6 children Alfred the oldest in Nov 1828 and William the youngest in 1847. (the youngest two, Seth 1844 and William 1847 born in France, no birth/baptism confirmation for these two).

In the 1851 Alfred aged 22 (1829) is lodging with a Jediah Wood, a miner, he is a coal miner unmarried. Thomas aged 14(1837) is living with his Aunt Lydia (nee Nightingale) and Uncle Henry Kerry, who in turn are living with Henry's Father in Belper. Thomas is a cotton factory hand (probably strutts). Seth aged 8 (1844) is in the workhouse at Belper with his sister Martha aged 17(1834) a general servant, and William aged 4 (1847). There is no trace anywhere of either Abraham or Ellen (Helen)

In 1842 the Strutts school register shows Thomas Allen aged 6 leaving to go to France. In 1845 he is readmitted to strutts school noted as 'from France'.

I have been searching for him for about 5 years. I have written to the Practical Family History Magazine , they said because in the Union Workhouse records (I have a copy) he is noted as absconded that is a criminal offence so if he was caught he would probably go to prison because of leaving his family chargeable to the parish. He is unlikely to have returned to england then is he?

Overseas consulate's records don't start until 1849 so there is no way to obtain Seth's records. On Seth's marriage cert he gives his father as Abraham Allen labourer.

a lot of people have had a hand in this search, my cousin employed somebody which is where we got the school and workhouse records from, then I had a volunteer in Belper Record Office searching and she came up with a bit more. What I can't find is why he absconded, hat did he do wrong, where in France did he go and why France? and how?

there you are ----- the mystery (or several) any ideas?

Ann
Glos

hmmm!

did it not say anything about the Mother in the workhouse records?.....he may have 'absconded' to find work....even to London or a big city where it would'nt be so easy to keep tabs on an 'absconder'

and now re-reading...hope I havent got it wrong.....if William was born in France in 1847 and Thomas was back in school in England 1845.....did the parents come back from France then go again before William was born.....do you think he may have been working on a ship?.....It would have cost a bit otherwise.

just to clear one thing up.....the Abraham Allen who's death is registered Basford 1882 age 73 ( 1809 ) is not yours?

No he is not mine (anyone want the death cert????)

Ann
Glos

Ellen Allen was admitted to the workhouse on 1 May 1841 with Alfred, Martha and William Joshua (born 1840 died 1842) cause destitution husband absconded. discharged on her own notice 8 May 1841

She is also admitted in July 1841 with Alfred, Martha, Thomas and William Joshua (born 1840, died 1842). Discharged on own notice 16 Feb 1842.

I will re-check the 1841 as when I got it before somebody else looked it up for me as I didn't have Ancestry then. Abraham was not with the family who were all living together in Belper.

On my records I have written ("There is no more trace of either Abraham or Ellen. did they send the children back to England alone? did they die in France? Or did they come back to England and lie low because Abraham was a wanted man? And how did Ellen and her children afford to travel to France?")
The oldest child would have been 16 and the youngest (excluding William) would have been Seth at one year old. without birth certificates it is difficult to confirm anything really.


Ann
Glos

Ann

Have you noticed how many Allen's were born in France living in England & Scotland.?

And the 1841 census for Belper has N for not born in County. Do you know where she was supposed to have been born.

I also note that there was another Ellen 'Allen' born around the same time and in Belper and married.....sure do like to confuse don't they.

I have only just noticed that she was not born in county in 1841. If you noticed (and I hadn't before) she is living with her brother who is born in county. I wonder if she got it wrong. If she had not been born in county and had been abandoned by her husband would she not have been returned to the parish where she was born for Parish relief?

Ann
glos

No hadn't noticed how many born in France were in England and Scotland, how did you find that out? I always assumed that Allen may have come from the French Alleyne. Maybe there were relatives in France.

Ann
Glos

ahhh! but how do we know she was even born in this country....she may have been baptised here...but nothing to say she was born here...may be another optional reason for her not being driven from the parish....unless it says different in the workhouse records ( just thinking aloud and keeping all options open lol ).or Abraham come to that.

Wonder if there is anything on the European BMDs cd....will have a look later.....nothing on the parish registers I suppose?

I have Family tree maker and it lists all in one go when doing a search ( can see at a glance lol )

Please do butt in any others who can come up with some lateral thinking or suggestions....the more the merrier :-)

Abraham Allen, parents Thomas and Lucy Christened Belper Derby 3 Apr 1808 batch 6934252 (IGI)

Ellen Nightingale parents John and Mary christened Belper 9 Sep 1810 (IGI member no batch)

Helen Nightingale (I am inclined to this one) parents William and Elizabeth Christened Belper 29 Dec 1805 (IGI again member no batch No)

Ann
Glos

Would you believe I have family tree maker and tend not to use it!!!!!!

Have you seen the actual PRs of Belper?....there may be more written on there...the next best thing to going to Derbysire would be to order a fiche ( they don't cost much, or even at your local LDS center.....then there are the Bishops transcripts...not trying to teach you to suck eggs...just thinking aloud and confirming where you have already looked so's I don't go over the same ground.....then there is A2A which may have some more clues

If it is 2008....can understand your reluctance.....just getting used to mine 'cause it is sooooo different from all the others.....have now worked my way around it and know all it foibles lol....FTM has always been a good search engine.....has all the Ancestry stuff at ones finger tips....as long as one has a subscription that is.

I have 2005 and 2008.

Not searched the derbyshire records but they are supposed to have been searched.

I now feel I have brick walls in front of brick walls!!!

I can probably get someone to do a search what do you suggest they should look for?

Actually I think they both evaporated!!

I wonder if he is on any court records if he absconded because he was in trouble. around 1842 was all the Chartist trouble, wonder if he was caught up in that (machine smashing etc.)

It doesn't hurt to do the History around that era.....

corse yer could ask the GR expert. He is supposed to know everything :-)))).....wonder when his next session is.

Am off to have a cuppa but will continue the search.....have you tried all the E A's and A A's.....maybe they were both in prison....or hospital even....some of them don't put names ...just the initials.

Looking at the census it looks like quite a small village so there shouldn't be too many names to wade through....then there are contiguous parishes....failing that there are prs of dissenters.... quakers Catholics etc.....I'll look on Genfair to see what they have and a couple of other sites.

Hi Ann

I have just been looking on the internet at your ancestors village of Belper. brilliant history of the Mill.

Have you seen the new online video they have put on the following site?.....

http://www.belpernorthmill.org.uk/

Also had a thought....the Huguenots went to Derbyshire I wonder if yours may have a connection The Walloons are well documented....just a thought for future reference

whoops...wrong spelling lol

I will take a look at that video, haven't looked at the Belper sites for ages.

I have wondered about hugonauts (I can't spell it!!) too.

Ann
Glos

I have now spent all morning looking for Allens in Belper/Duffield (where Abraham's Father Thomas comes from. Haven't turned up anything new but have renewed my interest in this branch. Can't yet find a link to William of the RN, still looking.

Hi Ann

Have you seen this?

Marriage From Free BMD

Name:Ellen Allen
Year of Registration:1850
Quarter of Registration:Apr-May-Jun
District:Belper
County:Derbyshire
Volume:19
Page:439

She married either William Gregory or Joseph Rogers

which may tie in with this death of an Abraham Allen ( although the no age may suggest it was a child not long born )
Death from Free BMD

Name:Abraham Allen
Year of Registration:1848
Quarter of Registration:Apr-May-Jun
District:Derby
County:Derbyshire
Volume:19
Page:405

Interestingly there is an Ellen and William Gregory in the 1851/61/71/81 census and she is born Belper....he may also have been married before as the first son was born 1837 and his name is Abraham

I take that back ( the above paragraph ) as I have found the whole family in Cheshire 1841 so it cant be your Ellen if she remarried in 1850