General Chat

That does make sense. I suppose possibly the person may have died (for instance, John Hurst the father) in the presence of his son John (who lived on the same road - they lived on a farm so I suspect there was a collection of dwellings occupied by the family), then the doctor certified the death for their own records and John the son went to register the death to get the certificate.

I have another relative - similar case to the one Chris mentions - who died in a lunatic asylum far from where his wife and daughter lived. The person who registered his death was a John Morland (I think he could have been an employee at the asylum, perhaps?) and the death was certified by a D M Cassidy, but the death wasn't registered until about eight days after the man died. Perhaps there was a registrar who visited the asylum.

I have a cert obtained only in last few days - it is of a child who died of smallpox at the workhouse (I assume the Infirmary at Portsea Workhouse) - Portsmouth was in the middle of an epidemic in 1872 and it was 5 days from childs death until registration and no Dr mentioned - informant - just the name - no occupation could have been an inmate for all I know. Strangest cert I have seen and very little info - does not give the child's home address.

So, Hayley...is this Fred who's Dead's dad? And how did it turn out in the end? Did the cert help (the other one that wasn't the wrong one)?

Kate - it's simple really. The death has to be certified (i.e a Medical Certificate as to the cause of death has to be issued). This does not however mean that the GP has to attend to state that the person has died. The GP might merely have anticipated the death, and said to the family..."OK when death occurs contact me and I'll sign the Certificate as to the cause of death - I dont need to see the deceased".

Upon receipt of the Certificate as to the Cause of Death, the death may be registered and the Registrar will issue a Death Certificate (which is actually a copy of the entry of the Register of Death) and which is what most people think of as Death Certificates and which is what most of us obtain doing family history.

The father of the twins I believe was therefore obviously informed by his GP that death of the twins was likely, and when it occurred he (the father)contacted the Dr. and the Dr. issued the Certificate of cause of Death (not the Copy Death Cert. which was obtained from the Registrars later)

At the time of his death (the father), the GP might well have been present at death, in addition to the eldest son - I dont know the circumstances - but I suspect that again the son notified the GP that death had occurred, and the GP issued the Certificate as to the cause of death (not the Copy Death Cert. that you have obtained).

What I do know is that a GP can and will issue a Medical Certificate as to the cause of death without seeing the deceased. It is not a legal obligation for him/her to see the deceased, and has not been so for some considerable time.

Jac

Kate,

If they have died in hospital..this is where a Doctor is most likey to be in attendence,

And you maybe a little confuesed,,,,,,,,,,a death has to be certified ie the person has died,expired but the duty to report it ie inform the regiser office can be anyone,,

John Hurst must have been in the same room, when the person died ,so all likey you man died at home,,,,,,,,and fetched a MD to certifify &issue a death certificate,,,,

Interesting. The father of the twins I mentioned was listed as informant on their death certificates, but no doctor was mentioned (which caused me to think maybe they couldn't afford one).

On the other hand, when the father of those twins died (aged 62), it says "death certified by J. H. Taylor, MRCSL" and then goes on to give the informant as "John Hurst, present at the death" (this was the eldest son of the dead man).

I'm puzzled now. Because in the case of these babies, the illness they had (consumption) must surely have given both doctor - if there was one (this was in the spring of 1852) - and parents the impression that they wouldn't live.

Ian - that was precicely what Hayley was talking about - a Dr. being in attendance at death, as I understood it. Obviously they have to sign the Death Cert. if they believe they can, without recourse to the Coroner.

We both know that GPs do not have the time to attend at each death (nor I feel the inclination either now or in years gone by).

It is therefore perfectly feasible, and does happen, that a death can occur and if burial is the preferred disposal that a Doctor need not see a body before that disposal.

Jac

The Doctor doesnt have to be in attendance at the actual death, but he must certify that life is extinct. Another qualified person may do so under certain circumstances.

As Jac rightly says, a doctor MAY issue a certificate giving cause of death if they have seen the deceased in the previous 14 days.

Jac and I will have to agree to differ.

Ian

Glad about that Hayley - cos it wouldnt have bin nice, would it? pmsl

Jac

Join the club Hayley,,

I have 4 now with just family --present, and of old age ,,,,,,,1840+ ,

they could have course been seen by a doc or md days before they died,,

Ian,
That is news to me as I have a few deaths in my present family where the doctor wasn't in attendance but did come round to pronounce death.

Sitting worrying now incase I get a knock at the door from the boys in blue:0)

No it ruddy wasnt...lol

Ian -= sorry but you are wrong. There is no need for a Dr. to attend to certify death (and if you pm me I will tell you exactly how I know).

In theory, death may occur at home (or in a n/home, residental home) and provided the attending Dr. has visited 14 days or seen the patient 14 days prior to death, and death is anticipated, then the GP has no legal obligation to attend to confirm that death has occurred.

Those in attendance at death are "qualified" to confirm that death has occurred, and the attending GP will, if satisfied, issue a Certificate of Cause of Death without recourse to the Coroner. (Obviously if the GP thinks something is amiss or does not accept the circumstances of death, he/she will refer to the Coroner).

It is therefore perfectly feasilble that a death can occur, and the body disposed of by burial without a Dr. seeing the deceased.

Jac

Very likely Kate = no need to visit if death imminent. Sorry state of affairs really, but it's a fact.

Hayley - sounds like a bargain to me!
lol (it wasnt second hand was it? cos I heard that he (Dr Shipman) was a beneficiary of the estates of some of his patients and would have disposed of the assets in the estates)

Jac


Jac

Sorry, but a doctor must certify death. Under certain circumstances, another qualified person may do so, but the extinction of life must be certified, regardless of where the death occurs or whether it was expected or not.

Cause of death must also be given.

A doctor (GP) may certify cause of death but there is an increasing trend for the death to be referred to the coroner, as a direct result of Shipman.

Ian
(ex coroners officer)

Kate...I did mean to put that they wouldn't really know when someone would actually die, but would come by and pronounce the death and who was in attendance.
Poor old fellas must have been run off their feet (and their horses) in those days.

Hayley :0)))) x

That is interesting. My 3xgreat grandparents' last children were twin babies, William and Elizabeth.

I got the death certificates for the twins last week - one died at 11 months, the other at 13 months, both from consumption and on the certificates it states "No medical attendant". I assumed this was because they were not well-off enough to pay the doctor, but given that they died of consumption, maybe it wasn't possible to predict exactly when they would die and so the doctor just called in to check on them now and then.

Jane PMSL......

Jac that was only up the road to us........and I brought one of our 3 pieces suites from the shop next door to his place....

It's a pleasure Hayley. Dr Shipman only got away with things for so long because some of his patients were buried - had they been cremated he would have been banged up long before.

Jac

Oh and I have a few where the next door neighbour came in and sat with them till they went.

I have searched high and low for a bit of scandal or mystery to no avail:0))