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does anyone know about the kings south africa medal? i have my ancestors medal card which doess not say anything about the kings s a medal.
would it be included if he had it?

Pearl

The MIC (Medal Index Cards) relate to WW1 and therefore don't include the KSA or QSA

MB

oh, thanks mummybear.

Should also add - that if you know he was in SA and you know his regiment you could look at the medal roll and see if he was elligable and perhaps with a clasp

Try - http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kevinasplin/home.html


MB

thats a good tip. i dont have access to the medal roll though, i dont know if you do. his name was herbert edward whitmore b london 1873, but it deos give refrence to the ksa 1901 in the 'medals and deoration'

Pearl

There is a Herbert Whitmore born Paddington 1873 on the ancestry ww1 Service Records.
Herbert was in the Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry (DCLI). Did he marry Angelina?
Do you have access to these?

MB

oh, yes i have got that thank you. when i opened it at the library it gave me herbert whittmore as a young boy 1884 (b1873) and herbert whitmore (with one T) age 41
im assuming its the same person. im a bit confused because he must have lied about his age when he began the army, it says he was 15, but really he was only 11, thats why im a bit unsure if its the same person.

Pearl

There is a death certificate (15 Apr 1951 - aged 83) in amoungst the service record info - have you got that info - does xref in with other info you know of Herbert. For example his daughter F L Ottley
MB

oh, thats great news, no i havent got that info. i have been looking for his death, all i could come up with was a herbert edward whitmore died age 73 hawarden, wales. but my nan said thats not him, because he died in hounslow middlesex.
that is his daughter. where can i find that death please. is it on ancestry?

ive just gone back from the death in 1951 age 83 but it makes him 5 years out! although florence ottley is his daughter.

Pearl

If you are sure (and you can only do this by Xref) the service record and other info that you'll know of his family. That this is the correct Herbert Whitmore - then you have a record of a very interesting man - who served in India, South Africa, WW1 - was entitled to a number of medals with interesting clasps - India with Punjab Frontier and Tirah (which he forfeited due to bad language?!?!)

South Africa Medal with six clasps including Relief of Kimberley
The KSA with 1901 and 1902 clasps.

I'm sure these would have looked wonderful pinned on the chest of this soldier.

The medal rolls for all these medals are available from TNA – but in my view having the service record beats a medal roll any day.

MB

sorry for my ignorance what do you mean by x ref? herbert definately lived in albion rd middlesex and his wife was angelina (my great grandmother), on the same print out was herbert (like you say swearing!) in his early days. these two must be the same man dont you think. except he must have lied about his age when he started.

Pearl

x ref = Cross reference ie check against other known details which you already have. You know his wife was Angelina and lived at Albion Road. (DId you know she had been married before and had two children before she met Herbert?).

So yes you have two service records, one for his time in India & South Africa which contains many interesting details and the other when he was called up in 1914 for WW1.

On attesting in to the Army you 'declared' your age no proof required - so anything reasonable went - you'll note that he was 4ft 10in when he joined in April 1884 aged '15'.

MB

thanks Mb, you have helped loads. did it say where his death was?

Pearl

Do be sure of his birth (which may be tricky). If you haven't already done so I'd get the birth for

Births Sep 1873 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whitmore Herbert Edward St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 379

And the marriage certificate

Marriages Dec 1905 (>99%)
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DEELEY Angelina Brentford 3a 245
WHITMORE Herbert Brentford 3a 245

And cross reference the fathers name on the marriage cert with that on the birth cert.

I think over the years he 'forgot' or perhaps didn't know when he was born - perhaps had exaggerated his age for so long that he'd forgotten when the 'real' date was.

MB

Yes there's a copy of the death certificate in the service record, he died at Albion Road.

MB

Pearl

You may be interested in the following website

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk/regiments/dcli/duke_index.htm

MB