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Can anyone assist in resolving problem of 2 marriages for John Vince
He was born 4/2/1877 Worcester Park Surrey (reg dist Kingston )and married first Edith Cook 1896 Dec Q Richmond and second Ellen Beatrice Clifford 1904 Jun Q Elham kent
In 1901 he is in Sandgate kent with Edith 24 b Stockbridge (actually Wallop) and son John E Vince 3 b Hythe Kent
In 1911 he is with Ellen Beatrice in Camberwell with a child Ivy (who was born Clifford) aged 8 and 2 sons of the marriage Frederick and Bertram both shown to be 2 but actually Frederick should be 6
My problem is I cant find a death for Edith nor can I find her or her son John Edward in 1911.
Of course I can get the second marriage cert but will it really help -if he says he is a widower it still doesnt help with what happened to Edith and her son?

I have all the earlier and later data so it is just this problem that is defeating me

Marriages Jun 1904 (>99%)
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Clifford Ellen Beatrice Elham 2a 2292
Vince John Elham 2a 2292

I suppose it is definitely the same John Vince? Just a thought.........

I dont think there is any doubt but I am prepared to be proved wrong ! Both show birthplace as Worcester Park or kingston and the Sandgate connection is there in the place of residence 1901 and the birthplace of Frederick in 1911

Edith and John E seem to have vaporised!

I could have a look in Folkestone library if you like. They may have parish registers for 1904....... I know they have for earlier years, but am not sure of 'cut-off' date.
Let me know if you want this type of help.



Gwyn

Maybe -


1911 census -


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BRADLEY, Fredrick Head Married M 39 1872 Gardener Hampton VIEW
BRADLEY, Emily Wife Married
19 years F 38 1873 Richmond VIEW
BRADLEY, William Son Single M 17 1894 Printer Teddington VIEW
BRADLEY, Fredrick Son M 13 1898 Ilford VIEW
BRADLEY, Minnie Daughter Single F 15 1896 Ilford VIEW
BRADLEY, Stanley Son M 11 1900 Ilford VIEW
VINCE, John Nephew M 13 1898 Sandgate VIEW *****
VINCE, Percy Nephew M 4 1907 Sandgate VIEW

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RG number:
RG14 Piece:
9891 Reference:
RG14PN9891 RG78PN521B RD191 SD2 ED42 SN160

Registration District:
Romford Sub District:
Ilford EnumerationDistrict:
42 Parish:
Ilford

Address:
20 Chester Road Seven Kings County:
Essex



Here's their marriage -


Marriages Jun 1893 (>99%)
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Bradley Frederick William Kingston 2a 635
Vince Emily Kingston 2a 635



(Sandgate is near to Hythe)

1911 original view says they had 5 children to this marriege one died.
Also says Ivy Locke Vince is John's daughter and there was also this written but then crossed out
Eileen beatrice Isabel May Vince age 3 months her death registered March 1911

Also Frederick Harry Beresford Vince is age 6 not 2.

Maryb

Thanks for the offer Gwyn but marriage registers are not held in libraries but in the appropriate County Hall (at least thats the case with my own church)
And Yes, Flick, they do seem to vanished -I wonder if she did a runner and moved in with another man taking his name -dont think divorce was on thecards for any but the very rich in those days
(I am also intrigued by Bertrams full name -Bertram Kirby Faunce de Laune -the Kirby came from Ellens mother but the rest of it seems to relate to a Wealthy family in Faversham (per Google) so just wishful thinking ....?)

Thanks for the addl 1911 info Mary -I had worked out Fred's age was wrong and I know it says daughter for Ivy but dont think this necessarily means biological daughter but could be
And Choccy! you do seem to have found John Edward the age and place of birth fit but who is Percy -more checking to do but many thanks!

Births Sep 1906 (>99%)
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Vince Percy Lionel M Elham 2a 1185

Yes, John had a sister Emily b 3/4/1870 Richmond so that clinches it!

Folkestone library definitely have parish registers on film.
I've viewed them.
I think most of them go up to c. 1904, so I don't mind having a look to see if the marriage is there.


Gwyn

Maybe Percy is the other child missing off 1911 census for John and ellen given that he has more than one middle name and John and ellen seem to give there a few.and frederick was born in same place

Maryb

Any ideas on Edith? It does now look as if she either died or ran off but no death can I find

Yes Mary I do think Percy must be another child of John and Ellen -together with Ivy, Fred and Bertram and the litttle girl who died that makes the 5 claimed.And it maybe the death of that child is the reason the 2 children John and Percy are with their aunt
Many thanks for the help -much appreciated

Gwyn -if it is not too much trouble then I would be grateful to know what the marriage entry says as regards status

OK...I'll see if I can find it next week.


Gwyn

I went into Folkestone today, but as suspected the parish register films stop at the crucial time.
I did check St Pauls Church, Sandgate for the baptism of John, son of John and Edith, but it wasn't there ( figured this was the nearest church to the 1901 address )
I then checked St Leonard's Parish Church,Hythe because Hythe was the given birthplace on the earlier census.
There he was....

John Edward VINCE was baptised 6 October 1897, son of John and Edith, a milkman of 3 Chapel Street, Hythe.
Birthdate was shown as 31 August 1897.

The records we need are in Canterbury Cathedral Archives. Hopefully I can get there before too long and have a look for this family.

Gwyn

I am enormously grateful to you Gwyn for taking so much trouble -the friend I am doing this for has no knowledge of the Vince side of his family for various reasons and having now children of his own wants to know his roots -the occ for John shown at the baptism fits with the 1901 census "Dairy foreman"