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To Lost-for-Words,
Well, that would sort out a lot of problems if he went to Canada in October 1926, rather than Sep 1929 - I always wondered what the heck he was up to! But there again, if he was into bigamy, I suppose anything's possible.
I love this man! He's such a character! I wish I'd known him.
OK,. I'll come totally clean with you all! I didn't want to offend anyone, but this is too delicious!
My mother is one of two children he fathered with his secretary in Nov 1925 and Nov 1826 (about a month after he left for Canada?!) However, my Mother recalls as a little girl (she can't recall how old she was) that he came to the house where she was living with her sister (they had foster parents), but they were sent outside to play. They didn't know who he was but she said he had a nice kind face and gave them some sweeties!
Thank you all for adding so much to the mental picture I have of him!!

Margaret
Yes, that is Sam's Daddy! John Venmore travelled to Utica and he and his wife (I'm pretty sure HE only had one!!) had a dtr in America called Margaret E W Williams, who is listed on the 1881 census as an 8-year-old born in Win PA North America. When he left Utica, he took up a position at Rhoscolyn, Anglesey and was there until his death on 24 Dec 1921. Family folklore says she was a nurse.

Kathryn,
Sorry, you asked before:
"If you can clear that up -- her (Samuel's first wife) name and DOB, if possible, I can look for the death at Ancestry and access the image, which might say something about Samuel's occupation"
Sorry I didn't answer in full, but this is the info I have:
1. Mabel Williams born Mar Qtr 1893, reg at Holyhead, Anglesey, Wales.
2. Shown on the 1901 Census as an 8-year old living with her Mother, brother and 2 sisters (all younger than her) Her Father, Edward is not listed at the same address, but her Mother IS listed as "Wife". Mum is listed as born at Llanddeusant, Anglesey and the 3 younger children at Llanynghenedl, but, mysteriously, Mabel's birthplace is left blank. I assume from that she was also born in Llanddeusant like her Mummy!
I have also since discovered Sam graduated from Bangor Uni in 1906, majoring in Welsh, but I don't know if that helps at all!
I'm still trying to take all this in!
Jilly

Is this his father? It's from the Utica Morning Herald, Thursday, July 30, 1885.
"Rome, July 29, Rev. J. Venmore Williams of Wales has been given a call to become pastor of the Welsh Methdist Calvinist Church in this city."

I think what you need now is someone who could access the Sarnia, Ontario newspapers. I live in Cornwall, Ontario. I'll go and check our newspaper archives to see if it was reported here. Don't know when that might be though. The way it's snowing now, we might not be able to get out tomorrow.
Margaret

Well then, no wonder I couldn't find a record of a death!

It seems the Rev must have placed that 1928 death notice in the paper himself. In the law biz, we call that self-serving evidence. ;)

That Mabel Williams death in Wales does just look so close to the death announcement in Ontario, though ... I wonder whether the bigamy charge was true/proved??


I'm stupid. It says right there he pleaded guilty. ;)

Found this in Rocheste NY Democrat Chronicle, Dec. 28, 1930

Minister Is Jailed
on Bigamy Charges

Sarnia. Ont., Dec. 27—Mi—Rev.
Samuel Venmore Williams, 49.
j Presbyterian clergyman in the village
of Watford, was remanded
to jail for a week today on his plea
of guilty to a charge of bigamy.
' The minister was arrested on
I complaint of his wife, Mary An-
' drews Williams, as he was preparing
his sermon for tomorrow. Police
said he admitted having left a
wife and three children in England
whan he came to Canada in
1928. HI married Miss Saunders,
a school teacher, last year. She
said he told her his first wife had
died in England.
She learned his first wife was
stlli living by intercepting letters,
she declared.

Well you need to be contacting that church in St Thomas! Seriously, if he was the minister there, there could be someone around who knew the family.

"No, I have a definite date of 22 Mar 1928 in Ontario for Mabel's death, altho this may have been her burial date"

So ... she was exhumed and transported.


Googling

funeral home "st thomas" ontario

we get back to the same excellent source:

http://www.elginogs.ca/discover/vitals7.htm


Funeral Home Records

Elgin County Branch OGS has been fortunate to gain access to several funeral homes’ records. Indexes of these records are available as publications of Elgin County OGS. Because of funeral homes’ concerns about confidentiality, only this index was published for consultation by researchers. But upon request, Elgin OGS may supply information from the registers. The following records are available:

Index to Moedinger Funeral Home, Sparta (c. 1899-1911)
Index to P. R. Williams Funeral Home, St. Thomas (c. 1895-1910)
Index to Evenden Funeral Home, St. Thomas (c. 1885-1890)
Index to Ostrander Funeral Home, Tillsonburg (c. 1910-1931) <<
Index to Towers Funeral Home (1909-1940) <<
Aylmer Funeral Homes (Allan, Atkinson, Barnum, Hughson, Kebbel)



I don't know what info the records would contain; likely nothing you don't know, but you never know.

No, I have a definite date of 22 Mar 1928 in Ontario for Mabel's death, altho this may have been her burial date if you cross-ref it with the Church notice above (saying her death had occurred on Mar 17).
From family goss, it seems the Vicar left Wales under a bit of a cloud and took the family to Canada but wife and dtr Myfanwy were dreadfully homesick and wanted to go home. Poor old Mabel did go home but perhaps not the way she intended!
Sam and Mary married on 3 May 1929 but he is listed as sailing on the Duchess of Athol on 29 Sep 1929 TO Quebec (well, that's where the ship was eventually going anyway!) so I have always assumed he had taken Mabel back to her final resting place in Wales and then gone back to Mary.
It seems that Myfanwy didn't take to Canada tho, as I have a death date for her in Jul 1989 at Bangor, Wales, not far from the old family stamping ground. But where did she spend the intervening years?? And are then any half-bros/sis floating around somewhere!
Questions, questions, all the time!
I did discover tho that Sam did a BA degree at Bangor Uni, graduating in Welsh in 1906, so another piece of the jigsaw falls into place. That was the year before he married Mabel, so I wonder if they met at Uni.....

I still just don't find a death for Mabel Williams in 1928 in Ontario, and a thought occurs to me.

Might she in fact have been visiting in Wales and died there?


Q1 1928
Mabel E Williams
age 38
district Swansea
vol 11a
page 1240

A possibility.

If that was the case and it took him until 1929 to travel back ... hmm.

Yup -- browse back through all that bumph and you see:

St. Thomas Journal
St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada
20 March 1928 <<<
Died - Mrs (Rev) S. Venmore Williams, Mar 17

He must have been a bit of a catch, and of course had a pool of congregants ;) -- married the next year.

For future ref (if you see this, heh), click on "My threads" over on the left and you will see all your threads and the date of the latest post.

I think of all those links, I'd try the First United Church one first.

You'll hit somebody local at a church that was originally Methodist and may even have been his church, so it's very likely to be your best source.

The United Church expanded a lot over the years after 1930 -- my old congregation only started around 1960, to serve a 1950s suburb, and didn't get a building until a few years later. Probably a number of the United Church congregations in the list I linked to are also much more recently established.

Do report on any findings, and good luck!

Kathryn, you're a gem! Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner but I'm still a newbie to this side of the Genes site and can't find my posts - I "assumed" I would get something in my email inbox like you do with Hot Matches, but it doesn't do that!!
Anyway, I will have a look at all of the links you have suggested!
His first wife was indeed Mabel Williams (born Mar Qtr 1893) and they were married June Qtr 1907 at Holyhead (or maybe that was just the registration district, not the actual place?!) Mabel must have died before May 1929 as that's when he married Mary Euphernia ANDREWS.
I wondered why he was then on a boat back to Canada in Sep 1929 but now I think it was because he had brought Mabel's body back for burial in Wales. From family "lore" both Mabel and Myfanwy (his & Mabel's dtr) were dreadfully homesick and both wanted to "go home" but Mabel only made it in a casket!
Anyway, off to look at those links! Thanks for all your help, most appreciated!
Jill

http://www.elginogs.ca/discover/church6.htm

Things to browse.


See under Churches here:

http://www.iconvillage.com/StThomasON.html

There are more United Churches in St Thomas than I would have thought.

At FreeBMD there's a messup with the transcription of his 1909 marriage record -- one groom, two brides, and all of them named Williams.

Presumably his wife was Ellen or Mabel. Neither name is helping to find the death that newspaper report refers to.

If you can clear that up -- her name and DOB, if possible, I can look for the death at Ancestry and access the image, which might say something about Samuel's occupation.


Meanwhile, here's the United Church congregation in St Thomas -- which started out as Methodist:

http://www.firstunitedchurch.info/history.htm

The history on the site is very sketchy, but I think they will be your best source for info.

So google found me where you'd been pointed to the marriage, and where it can be found:

http://www.elginogs.ca/newsindexes/timesjournal/sttj1929marthrumay.htm

Have you tried to get a copy of the newspaper report to see the details?

Googling "venmore williams" ... did you also see this?

http://www.elginogs.ca/newsindexes/timesjournal/sttj1928marthruapr.htm

St. Thomas Journal
St. Thomas, Ontario, Canada
20 March 1928
Died - Mrs (Rev) S. Venmore Williams, Mar 17

That would presumably have been his first wife.

You haven't said her first name, and I'm not seeing a death at ancestry.ca to match -- for a Williams, on that date, or in Elgin County.

(I grew up in Middlesex County, about 30 miles from St Thomas.)

Okay, Methodist church history in Canada in a nutshell, to get a handle on this -- it gets a little complicated:

http://www.victorshepherd.on.ca/Other%20Writings/the_methodist_tradition_in_canada.htm

"In 1925 the Methodist Church united with 70% of the Presbyterian Church in Canada and 96% of the Congregational Union of Canada to form The United Church of Canada."

Well ... except that there is still a Methodist Church.

... Oh ew, I was hoping to trace it back from an individual Methodist congregation on line, and I hit one that has links to Focus on the Family and suchlike ugliness -- the complete opposite of the United Church of Canada (my church back many years ago when I had a church), the most progressive church in Canada and pretty much in the world. But bizarrely, it also links to Christians for Biblical Equality, which teaches the equality of men and women etc. ... diametric opposite of Focus on the Family ... so I'm confused. Anyway, it's not getting me to a central body.


Okay, you can google the Methodists yourself. I'm too confused.

Here's the UCC:

http://www.united-church.ca/

A lot of different contacts:

http://www.united-church.ca/contact/gco

Archives:

http://www.united-church.ca/local/archives

In any event, all I would say is that pretty much whoever receives an inquiry from you will do their best to help out. Close your eyes and point your mouse!

For official records, you're probably out of luck.

Do you know whether he continued to ... what do clergy do, practice? ... in Canada?


If so, you could contact both the Methodist Church and the United Church of Canada (a union of Presbyterians, Methodists and other bits and pieces around when your Samuel immigrated).


I'll find some links and come back.

My Grandfather, Samuel Venmore WILLIAMS, a Calvinist Methodist minister and (hopefully!) a widower, married Mary Euphernia ANDREWS in Ontario on 3 May 1929. I have located the record for a sailing by Sam to Quebec in September 1929 on the "Duchess of Athol" with his dtr, Myfanwy, but can't find an earlier sailing.
I have "lost" him after his marriage and don't know if he returned to Wales later (he was born in Llanbeblig, Caernarvonshire) or if he died/was buried in Canada.
Can anyone suggest how I can trace the elusive vicar? I would like to know what happened to him and his dtr Myfanwy and if he and Mary Euphernia had any children. I have never used Canadian records before, other than on Ancestry, but I haven't got very far! As it all happened so "recently", there doesn't appear to be enough of a time-lapse (eg the 100-year rule) to acces the records online!
Thanks for any suggestions! We live in Tasmania so Canada is a l-o-n-g way to go!!