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Simon
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7 Sep 2008 21:22 |
K
I have been convinced for months of your Whitehead-Greenwood theory / connection.
Susannah Whitehead wasn't born in Lancashire and is likely to be from Greetland.
Hannah and William's father was Henry.
Maybe James father was Henry but somehow he got called Richard on his marriage cert.
Maybe he died when James was very young and Richard, Henry's brother was his father in James eyes.
I will try and find Henry and Richard death cert on IGI.
If his grandfather John Whitehead was a wool cloth manufacturer it might explain how he became a Boilermaker.
The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:22 |
Since we can find no record on line of the Betty Whitehead - Henry Greenwood marriage, I would still suggest getting Hannah's birth cert -- again, one of these two:
Births Jun 1838 Greenwood Hannah Ashton & c 20 136
Births Dec 1838 GREENWOOD Hannah Ashton 20 81
It will confirm that her father really was *Henry* Greenwood (the name on William's marriage certificate not being proof).
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Adding on edit for reminder -- from the IGI, submitted record:
WILLIAM GREENWOOD Christening: 03 JUL 1834 Oldham, Lancashire, England Father: HENRY GREENWOOD Mother: BETTY
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This still leaves the possibility that James was born before that marriage, adopted his stepfather's surname, but invented a father with his stepfather's surname and his real father's given name when he married. This was not at all uncommon for children born outside marriage who used a stepfather's surname from childhood onward but knew something about their real father.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:26 |
What's this now? --
"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."
There are two possibilities for deaths for Henry Whitehead in the GRO. He had to have died after 1837, to be the father of Hannah.
Deaths Mar 1839 Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 107 Greenwood Henry Ashton 20 3[79]
Unfortunately the death certificate would likely not give any info to confirm.
Oh, all right. I'll check that illegible page number at Ancestry (which has much clearer images than FreeBMD).
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:30 |
It's volume 20 page 39. Perfectly legible. The other one is correct, volume 20 page 107.
I hesitate to submit a correction to FreeBMD because I may already have done it, and they get extremely snappish if you don't follow their rules. Kinda like dealing with the Soup Nazi.
(or like dealing with me. ;) -- that explanation for the PMs did occur to me!)
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Simon
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7 Sep 2008 21:33 |
What's this now? --
"The 1851 might have the answer. I wonder if aged 20 in 1851 James was working in the Whitehead Mill."
John Whitehead husband of Suzey was the owner of a Woollen Mill (according to Francis Toit)
Can you find John Whitehead on the 1841 or 51.
If he was dead by 1841, where did young James get the education and experience to be a boilermaker by 1861 a hundred miles from Oldham in Bilston.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:43 |
Ah, I thought you meant we'd had a James aged 20 working in the mill ...
How about this one?
Name: James Greenwood Age: 18 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833 Relation: Nephew Gender: Male Where born: Baildon, Yorkshire, England Civil Parish: Manningham -- rigiht place?? County/Island: Yorkshire Country: England
Occupation: P.L. Weaver Worsted Registration district: Bradford Sub registration district: Horton ED, institution, or vessel: 2l Household schedule number: 107
James Greenwood 18 William Long 55 - Woolcomber Mary Long 56 Abram Long 14 - Cotton Spinner Harriet Long 30 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted) James Long 26 - Wool Comber John Long 22 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted) Sarah Ann Long 16 - P.L. Weaver (Worsted)
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:45 |
John Whitehead husband of Suzey isn't likely our Whiteheads -- may be parents of that batch of children born in Greetland, in the IGI, but these really don't seem to be the Whiteheads in Oldham from before 1841.
So I wouldn't be looking too hard for a connection to the Whitehead Mill.
Edit -- does F's tree not have death dates for them?
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Simon
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7 Sep 2008 21:47 |
Manningham's between Bradford and Leeds to far from Greetland.
No way of linking him to our James in 1841 or 61,71 or 81 though.
In fact would give me 4 different birthplace for James.
Baildon is notrh of Bradford, he must have really been forgetful to say Bolton and Yorkshire in later census.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:50 |
Manningham is where the Whitehead Mill was, no? That's what google told me, so that's where I looked.
I think that Greetland connection I thought was a possible really isn't, though. The Whiteheads in Oldham seem to be a different batch altogether.
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Simon
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7 Sep 2008 21:54 |
Oh Ok Kath.
So Susey Thwaite is not our married Susanah Whitehead.
Who was our Susannah's husband?
On the 27th Sept. the manchester and lancashire family history society are having a open day. I will go to see if I can find James Greenwood on the 1851 Census. They have transcribed a water damaged section of the census that includes Oldham.
I will get the two Hannah Greenwoods birth certs.
Are we any closer to cracking this one?
Is little James living with the Whiteheads in 1841 mine?
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 21:55 |
1851
Name: James Whitehead Age: 20 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831 Relation: Lodger Gender: Male Where born: Ashton ??, Lancashire, England (oh, it says Ashton under Lyne) Civil Parish: Newton Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints Town: Newton County/Island: Lancashire Country: England
>> Occupation: Cotton Piecer Registration district: Manchester Sub registration district: Newton ED, institution, or vessel: 2f Household schedule number: 133
William Bottomley 20 James Cooeley 26 Allen Denerley 47 Ann Fish Denerley 30 Elizabeth Denerley 9 Hugh Denerley 5 Sarah Denerley 46 William Denerley 21 Daniel Price 19 John Price 45 William Ridge 21 James Whitehead 20
Looks very much like "our" 1841 James Greenwood in the Whitehead household in Oldham.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 22:08 |
Yes! Check out the new records, for sure.
Also ask them what they think about him being in the military / navy in 1851, whether there's any way of checking that out (Kew, I guess), and whether anyone has any ideas about how he would have learned his trade.
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Simon
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7 Sep 2008 22:19 |
K
I think you found this 1851 record before.
But how did a Cotton Piecer in 1851 in Ashton become a boilermaker in Bilston in 1861.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 22:27 |
Too old ...
JAMES WHITEHEAD Christening: 21 MAR 1825 Burnley, Lancashire, England Mother: BETTY WHITEHEAD Batch No.: P005202
But I don't see him in 1851.
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 22:43 |
Could Whitehead have been Betty's first married name?
And William another son of that marriage?
And she then married / hooked up with Henry Greenwood and moved to Oldham?
WILLIAM WHITEHEAD Birth: 16 JAN 1834 Christening: 24 FEB 1834 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England Father: RICHD. WHITEHEAD Mother: BETTY WALSH Batch No.: C086351
JAMES WHITEHEAD Birth: 2 AUG 1831 Christening: 18 SEP 1832 Ebenezer Primitive Methodist, Blackburn, Lancashire, England Father: RICHARD WHITEHEAD Mother: ELIZABETH WELSH Batch No.: C086351
Could the 1836 christening of William Greenwood, son of Henry Greenwood and Betty --
03 JUL 1836 George Street Chapel-Independent Methodist Or Wesloldh, Oldham, Lancashire, England
have been a rechristening??
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JaneyCanuck
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7 Sep 2008 22:48 |
The marriage for those births:
Richard Whitehead Spouse: Betty Walsh Marriage: 20 JAN 1831 Blackburn, Lancashire, England Batch No.: M007085
Nope. They're in Blackburn in 1841.
Richard Whitehead 30 Betty Whitehead 35 James Whitehead 8 Jane Whitehead 5 Margaret Whitehead 3 Thomas Whitehead 1 William Whitehead 7
Ruling OUT is important!!
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Simon
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8 Sep 2008 10:21 |
Great Work K
Ruling out is so important.
Everything you do leads us back to James Greenwood in Oldham living with Whiteheads on the 1841.
But who were his mum and dad?
Betty Greenwood?
Richard Greenwood?
Henry Greenwood?
Was he illegitimate?
If this is my gr gr grandfather how did he become a skilled boilermaker in Bilston over 100 miles from Oldham by the 1861 Census.
Where was he in 1851?
Was he in the military?
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Simon
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8 Sep 2008 11:09 |
Military Records
Record Summary Scope and content Folios 370-372. James Greenwood, born Yorkshire. Attestation papers to serve in the Royal Marines at Woolwich 1855 (when aged 19). Discharged [discharge date not given] as [discharge reason not given]. Joined from West Yorkshire Militia. Covering dates 1855 Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years Held by The National Archives, Kew Record Summary Scope and content Folios 191-195. James Greenwood, born Lancashire. Attestation papers to serve in the Royal Marines at Portsmouth 1852 (when aged 23). Discharged 1865 as Limited Service. Covering dates 1852-1865 Availability Open Document, Open Description, Normal Closure before FOI Act: 30 years Held by The National Archives, Kew From national archives. I don't think they fit my James but rules two more out.
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Simon
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12 Sep 2008 21:33 |
KB look at this record gives Michael Greenwood as his father.!
Search Record Details County Staffordshire Place Wolverhampton Church St Peters RegisterNumber 430442 MarriageDate 25 Nov 1860 GroomForename James GroomSurname GREENWOOD GroomAge 28 GroomParish GroomCondition GroomOccupation Boiler maker GroomAbode Bilston St Leonards BrideForename Henrietta BrideSurname ATTWOOD BrideAge 26 BrideParish BrideCondition BrideOccupation BrideAbode Bilston St Leonards GroomFatherForename Michael GroomFatherSurname GREENWOOD GroomFatherOccupation Farmer BrideFatherForename William BrideFatherSurname GOODWAY BrideFatherOccupation Carpenter WitnessOneForename William WitnessOneSurname KEEN WitnessTwoForename Catharine WitnessTwoSurname GOODWAY Notes Banns; Recorded by H HOUSMAN FileNumber 4750
Kindly found on freereg by Tracy. In my excitement to let KB know of new developments after 9 months, I forgot to say it was Tracy found it. Apologies but this breakthrough is amazing. Helpful maybe
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JaneyCanuck
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13 Sep 2008 00:21 |
Well there's a turnup for the books.
You have a copy of the Greenwood-Attwood marriage certificate? And it says Richard Greenwood for father?
Everyghing else in your post is the same as on the marriage certificate?
Where's that record from? You need to look at the original! "Michael" could be a mistranscription of "Richard".
I long ago corrected that exact mistake in a census entry for a Richard Monck whom Ancestry had transcribed as Michael (who, all this time later, I am considering as a suspect in my mystery ...).
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