Find Ancestors

..that I'm stuck

In Pratt St, St Pancras, in the 1901 census my Great-Grandfather Charles Hopton (age 50), is living with my Great-Grandmother Ada Hopton (nee Ballard age 30). I can find no record of their marriage, and suspect that they were not. Also living with them is Lily Hopton age 8, daughter of Charles Hopton and a previous partner.

Lily's 1893 birth cert shows her full name as Lilian Edvena, and her mother to be an Annie Hopton formally Gamble.

In Hartland Rd, St Pancras, in the 1891 Census, Charles Hopton is living with Annie Gamble (calling her Annie Hopton, but again no marriage record). Also living with them is Herbert age 6 (Annie's son by her husband Thomas Gamble marriage 1878) and Annie's mother-in-law I think

Herbert's 1884 birth cert shows his mother to be Annie Gamble formally Hagger.

The 1878 Gamble/Hagger marriage index shows that "Annie's" actual name then is Mary Annie Hagger.

Soon after 1901 Charles Hopton and Ada moved to Birmingham, and went on to have 4 children incl my grandfather. According to my family's oral history, Lily was left behind in London, though still only a child, and already having lost her mother somewhere along the line!

There is a death record for an Annie Gamble in 1897. At age 37, she dies in St Pancras Workhouse of "alcoholic poisoning accelerated by concussion of brain in fall when itoxicated" .

If you are still with me this is where I need some help....

Given all the facts I am fairly sure that the Annie Gamble death cert is that of my Great Grandfather's former partner. How can I be certain? Might there be records for St Pancras Workhouse somewhere? What became of Herbert Gamble, or Lilian Hopton? I can find no record of their marriages or death. Also, I cannot find any record of Charles Hopton before 1891 census, birth or any marriage.

Any advice appreciated, and thanx

--
Richard

I'm sorry, Richard but I just had a good old chuckle while reading your post.
Could it be that Coronation Street is based on your family?
Marg

Can I just ask do you have any info about where Charles and Ada were born?

Also there is this Lily in Birmingham?

Marriages Jun 1915 (>99%)

Hopton Lily Newey Birmingham 6d 383

Hi Richard,
The London Metropolitan Archives might be able to help with the workhouse records.....
40, Northampton Road, London EC1R0HB

02073323820


Regards Vera

Not sure if this is any help (1881)

Thomas GAMBELL Head M Male 31 St Luke Wire Worker
Mary A. GAMBELL Wife M Female 26 Clerkenwell
Alfred GAMBELL Son Male 1 St Luke

Information:
Dwelling 1 Little Gloster Court
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341079
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0365 / 42
Page Number 36

Selena,

I have looked long and hard at that 1915 Newey/Lily Hopton Birmingham marriage. Well I have at the index anyway.

But I was told, vall be it vaguely, that Lily was left behind in london, and that my Grandfather's sister once went to visit her there.

Anyway, I shall order the certificate.

The 1881 census record looks unlikely, being "Gambell" not "Gamble", and with it adding another unaccounted for child.

Thanks v.much for doing these lookups for me.

--
Richard

Gambell might just be the wrong spelling by someone (enumerator) or a mistranscription. I have had my Poole's transcribed as Cool and my Roden's as Kaden and Kochin. I've learnt to be a little flexible about spellings!

The other child might have died, and it might be worth looking if you can find out where Thomas is on 1891. Anyway good luck with marriage cert

Selena

As a follow up to my original question, by visiting the LMA in London, I have confirmed that the Annie Gamble (calling herself Hopton) who died in St Pancras workhouse in 1897, was indeed my Great-Grandfather's partner. She was admitted only two weeks before she died, age only 37.

I now know that she had previously had at least four children by her husband Thomas Gamble. These were Alfred 1878(+/-1), Thomas 1880(+/-1), Herbert (1883) and Mary Ann (1886). By Charles Hopton, my great-grandfather, she had a daughter Lilian Edvina in 1893.

My aim now is to find a living descendent of Annie Gamble, or at least establish that there is not one.

Of her five children mentioned...

I think Alfred Gamble died at age 4.

Thomas Gamble I have no info.

The 1891 census, has Herbert Gamble at age 6 living with his mother and my great-grandfather Charles Hopton.

The 1891 census, has Mary Ann Gamble at age 4 living with her father. The 1901 census has her at age 14 living with her father's sister's family.

The 1901 census has Lilian Hopton at age 8 living with my Great Grandfather and his then new parther Ada (My great grandmother). I have confirmed that she is not the Lily Hopton marrying in 1915.

Any help in finding what happened to any of these children greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Rich

Blimy and I thought my family managed to weave a pretty big web of deceipt! My families speedy marriages and bigamy pale into insignifigance along side your tale!

One thought though have you looked to see if any of Annie's parents were still alive, Lily may have gone to live with her grandparents and had her surname mistranscribed to theirs. This has happened to me a couple of times, it can really throw you of the scent. Could be worth trying her as Lily Hagger, or Lily Gamble.
Good luck, Lisa

Thanks Lisa,

I have explored the whereabouts of the parents.

In 1891, Annie, having split up with husband Thomas, is not only living with new bf Charles and son Herbert (By Thomas) , but also living there, rather incredibly under the circumstances, is her ex-mother in law, Thomas' mom!

Whilst Thomas' mom is being described here as a widow, she is in actual fact no such thing. Her husband, also Thomas, is alive and well. I know this because her son Thomas is now living with him along with Thomas' daughter Mary Ann. Unfortunately, at this address AS WELL is Thomas' mom again. In other words she has managed to get herself on to the census at two different addresses in Pancras.

I didn't include this because I wanted to keep it simple :-)

Thanks

Rich

Hi Richard,

One things for sure - simple it aint! Mind you it's the stories like this that keep us smiling, and yours is certainly very very amusing! If i decided to shack up with someone else my MIL would no doubt have my head on a stick rather than moving in and doing the babysitting!

Out of interest does thomas have a brother whose wife has the same name as his wife, i.e could the person who entered the details have assumed that as she was married she was married to him?? although I'm not sure if any of us could stand for your story to get any more comlicated - but you never know. After all it is kind of playing out like an old fashioned bedroom farce!

Good luck
Lisa ;-)

Richard, have you done a quick search on this site for the Gamble family? Two people have entered Mary Gamble b1886 St Pancras. Might be worth contacting them if you haven't already. The same people have also entered Alfred and Thomas.

Good luck

Thanks Selena.

Yes, I have tried to contact both Eileen and Paul, but so far no reply.

I have made more progress today. I have now located both Alfred and Thomas in 1891. Age 11 and 9 respectively they are "inmates" at St Pancras Industrial School for pauper children, in Watford.

With all 5 children now located in 1891 and 1901, I feel sure that I will eventually uncover a line to a living descendent.

Thanks

Richard

Futher update in my search for a living relative of Mary Ann Gamble (nee Hagger) 1860-1897

Her 5 children, last references I have...

Alfred Gamble born 1879... At St Pancras School for pauper children Leavesden, from Feb 1890 to Mar Mar 1893. Discharged to join Training Ship Exmouth. Probably the Alfred Gamble at Caterham Asylum in 1901 census.

Thomas Gamble born 1881... At St Pancras School for pauper children Leavesden, from Nov 1889 to Mar Mar 1894. Discharged to "Emigrate to Canada".

Herbert Gamble born 1883... living with his mother and her new partner Charles Hopton. Declared themselves as married and Herbert's name as Hopton in 1891 census.

Mary Ann Gamble born 1886... living with her father and paternal grandparents in 1891. In 1901 living with her Aunt Eliza Potter

Lilian Edvena Hopton born 1893... living with her father Charles Hopton and his partner in 1901. Left behind when Charles moved to Birmingham soon after.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks

There is this one in the WW1 pensions list.

Name: Herbert Gamble
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Age at enlistment: 32
Residence: 8 Prince S, Ilkeston
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 121995
Number of Images: 14

Thanks Ozibird.

Looked very promising but checked BMD, and there is another Herbert Gamble birth 1883 registered in Belper, only a few miles from Ilkeston. Expect this is more likely to him.

Not used the WW1 DB before. To what does "Number of Images" refer?

That is the number of pages in his file & you can view them. Usually there is next of kin named. Also where they were posted, injured, discharged, etc. It's how I found a long lost great-uncle. He had my grandmother as next of kin.

Ozi.