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Apologies for the length of this one, but I'm stumped. I so want this to be right that I've believed it from the start. What we have is family legend meets the scattergun researcher. Opinions and suggestions where to look for real supporting evidence welcome. Go on - read it - you know you want to really ! Rick.

I have a very large number of aunts, uncles and cousins. We have long had a family legend of an ancestor known only as "The Spanish Woman". The consensus is that she was on my paternal grandfather's side of the family, although not everyone thought this. Some think they saw her when they were children or at least a picture of her. Most assume they remember her simply because she dressed in black lace (which sounds very much like Victorian/Edwardian mourning dress to me). The oldest living member of that side of the family, my great aunt said she thought the woman was "way back" on the Marshall line. She also said her grandmother's maiden name was Clara Harris and her uncle William was illegitimate. OK so forget that for now as I've just been doing some ordinary research into the Marshall line. Here are the 1871 and 1881 census entries just for the relevant family members: 1871 census 10 Bramley Marshes Hammersmith Henry Marshall,26,labourer,Croydon Clara Marshall,22,wife,laundress,London William Harris,3,London 1881 census 5, Martin Street,London Henry Marshall,35,bricklayer,Croydon,Surrey Clara Marshall,33,wife,laundress,London William Marshall,15,Kensington Thomas Marshall,8,Kensington Subsequent censuses give Henry's age as 44 and 53, Clara's as 42 and 51, William as 22 (not found in 1901) and Thomas as 17 and 27. Thomas's birth certificate (May 1873) gives Henry and Clara (nee Harris) Marshall as the parents. OK - end of facts & start of speculation: Henry was born about 1845/46, Clara 1848/49, William 1868/69 ? Henry and Clara married after 68/69, but before 71 - prime candidate 1870. Only one marriage in Kensington fits the bill (yes this is pretty random and I largely base this on freebmd) - Henry Marshall with Clara Harriss (note two s's) 1870, March quarter,1a,91. Got the cert - 6 February 1870 - only clues are his father, George Marshall, gardener,hers William Harriss, enginerr. Only two birth candidates in Kensington - one Clara Elizabeth Harris, the other Clara Alice Harriss - I picked the one with the extra s and here's what her birth cert said. Born 21 July 1848, father Jose Maria Penalber, translator of languages, mother Agnes Elizabeth Harriss. The name Penalber is spanish (you wondered if I'd ever get back to that, didn't you ?). He married another woman in 1848. Can't find any of these people in 1851 or 1861. When given this "evidence", my great aunt said her grandmother Clara "looked spanish" and wore unfashionable black lace. OK - so have I jumped to conclusions (well - I know I have really) and picking certs pretty much at random got a dodgy spanish connection ? What are the odds that another Henry Marshall married another Clara Harris or Harriss in Kensington in the right year or so ? Is the birth certificate that of my ancestor and is it even the same woman that the marriage certificate is for ? Go on then - if you've got down here, you might at least give me a reply ! Rick.

Rick, In the 1891 census Clara has her place of birth as Notting Hill. Have you determined whether either, none or both of the addresses on your Clara Harris/s birth certificates fall into that area? Emma.

Hi Emma, That part of my family have always lived in W.London and all have registered in Kensington (incl Notting Hill). The birth certificate I have is from St Mary Paddington which is part of Kensington, Paddington & Fulham. Freebmd has another - Clara Elizabeth Harris born Sep 1845, Kensington which I've not really looked at any further as I got hooked on the two s's i the surname. Some others in central and E.London. Marriages in Middx 1865 - 1870 with either spelling only come up with the one I ordered from W.London - there are some from central and E.London. Thanks for your reply (and your stamina in reading the lot !!) Rick.

Hi Rick Thought I'd reply seeing as it must have taken you so long to type that! If you find out she is Spanish, and find out where she came from and it's near where I hava an appartment, I can do all your Spanish research!! You didn't think I could be that helpful did you? At least I'm giving this a nudge! Lynda

Hi Lynda, I was wondering how on earth I would actually research things if I could prove the spanish connection. Didn't think I'd have an agent on the ground ;-) I actually know a bit about Jose Maria Penalber as he had a string of kids by at least 3 different women and someone put him on Kindredkonnections as born about 1800 with a father called Francis. The question is, is he Clara's father (and if not, is William Harriss - who doesn't seem to exist) ? Thanks for the nudge ! Rick.

I'm so stuck - don't know where to go from here. Please let's have some opinions. I'd be really grateful for some responses. (Thanks to Lynda for some support). Rick.

Rick, Just thought I'd throw my pennies-worth in and nudge this back up to the top the list in the hope that someone else has more ideas for you. Two comments: Probability: had a few occasions of 'what are the chances of there being two' - the answer is usually nil. So your assumptions about the marriage are probably correct. Family Legends: this, on the other hand, has been proven wrong time and time again. The common thread seems to be that they were stories told to children (i.e. my now elderly relatives when they were young). The stories were usually something that might have been said to present things in a positive light and avoid difficult questions. In your case, the latter probably doesn't apply. Anyway, your enquiry should now move nearer the top of the board at least for a while! Good luck with your searches - and don't forget to tell us of the outcome! Regs Jane

Thanks for taking the time to answer Jane - I appreciate it. Rick.

Dear Rick Good luck. I can't really help much, but have you thought of getting the birth certificate for the Clara Harris born in 1845 just in case? I agree with Jane that the probability in these cases is usually nil, and that you have to treat family legends with caution, but is it worth £7 for the certificate just to lay that other possibility to rest? Mind you, in case this is relevant, I recently paid over £20 to get the references checked for five certificates, issued over a five-year period, trying to track down a gg-grandfather, all to come to nothing, although the one that is still a possibility was born exactly when we worked out he would have been... Regarding what one looks like, I have bluey-greeny-grey eyes and very long light brown hair, and am English through and through, apart from a bit of Welsh blood. I lived in Russia for a while and eveyone was convinced I was Latvian and called me a fascist, so could it be that this lady was just dark haired and eyed and wasn't Spanish? Unlikely, maybe, but maybe not impossible... Very best of luck Lysianne

I think that Lysianne has a point. My great grandmother was down in a book as coming from Italy. One member on a distant side of the family, having lived in Italy for some time, had spread the word around. This could have led me up a very steep garden path but fortunately an Aunt was still alive to correct the wrong information and when I asked this Aunt about the story, she was very mystified, but she did tell me that she had very long black hair and had an Italian look about her, but that she actually came from Ireland! She then gave me all the names of the children, so I was the lucky one. Now if she had had red hair? I did find her in Ireland with a definite Irish name. Careful with family myths, they did have a habit of saying things like this. Janet

Hi Lysianne & Janet, Thanks for your replies. I didn't get the other certificate as Clara's age on all of the censuses tend to suggest she was born more like 1848 than 1845. Also, if the marriage cert is the right one, then it was Harriss rather than Harris. I understand that family legends need to be taken with a pinch of salt and that "looking Spanish" is open to interpretation !! The story of the Spanish woman is widespread in my family and I have an extraordinary number of relatives on that side. The thing is that this looks like supporting evidence. I've been thinking more about the odds & probabilities involved. There's only one marriage of a Henry Marshall in Kensington between 1868 and 1871 on freebmd and the indexes for those years are nearly 100% complete. Makes me feel pretty sure the marriage cert is the right one. The birth indexes for 1847 and 1848 are also nearly complete and there's only one Clara Harriss comes up for Kensington in those years and she has a father with a Spanish name. I'm talking my self into this, aren't I ? Rick.

Hi Jennie, I haven't gone too far with it as I'm still wondering if he's really my ancestor. There are a few children born to him on the IGI to to the woman he married in 1848 - the same year my GG grandmother Clara was probably born. He even married once before that and someone has put him on Kindredkonnections too, naming his father as Francis. Unfortunately there is no way of contacting that person. I don't know that he was even born in Spain, but I know he died in 1875 in Leavesden Asylum near Watford and that he's buried in Abney Park cemetery along with his second wife and some of his children. Funny really - I know quite a lot about him & don't even know for sure that we're related. Thanks for your reply, Rick.

Rick, Yes, you are talking yourself into it - go with it, sounds good to me! When you get down to weighing that kind of probability, it's a 'no-brainer' - you're on the right track. Can't wait to hear the next instalment! Regs Jane

You have talked yourself into it. What are you waiting for?? If you already have Spanish relatives there is a good chance that you should go with your hunch. Tell us the result! Janet

Dear Rick Yes, the more I think about it, the more I think you should go for it! The probabilities really sound pretty high. Good luck Lysianne

Thanks to you all for your encouragment ! Here's an update....found Jose Penalber on the Kindredkonnections site with loads of descendants, including Clara. She was down as Clara Penalber rather than Harriss. I decided to upload my GEDCOM as they give you a months free subscription if you do and that enables you to contact the submitters. Took a while as it failed first time and then the site went down for a bit, but I got there in the end. Guess what ? No submitter information - was I ever frustrated ! Anyway, I'm now treating the marriage cert as if it's the right one. On it she names her father as William Harriss, engineer and he names his as George Marshall, gardener. I guess William Harriss could just be made up to avoid the stigma of being illegitimate, but I haven't been able to trace one in 1861,71 or 81. Can't find her mother Agnes Elizabeth Harriss either. There's a few George Marshalls around who are gardeners, but nothing much to link to Henry apart from one living in London in 1881 who comes from Kent. Just to muddy the waters, someone in the family once went to Somerset House and reckoned the Marshalls came from Huntingdon originally. Henry was born in Croydon and I've turned up a Henry Marshall in 1851 aged 4, born Croydon, with a father also called Henry born in Huntingdon !! This is beginning to hurt my head ! Rick.