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I have the marriage cert for my g granfather x2. Its states he was 20 on april 11 1888 It states they lived in Loppington Shropshire his father was Alfred Brown a Farmer. Does this look right from the censuses? Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island Alfred Brown 37 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Liverpool Lancashire Alfred Brown 3 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Liverpool Lancashire Selena Brown 25 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Wife Liverpool Lancashire Selena Brown 5 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Liverpool Lancashire Thos Brown 1 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Liverpool Lancashire 1881 George S. BROWN Head W Male 52 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Painter & Plumber (Master) George BROWN Son U Male 15 Everton, Lancashire, England Painter Caleb BROWN Son Male 11 Everton, Lancashire, England Scholar Alfred BROWN Nephew Male 13 Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England Painter Dwelling 30 Foley St Census Place Kirkdale, Lancashire, England Family History Library Film 1341880 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 3675 / 24 Page Number 42 1891 Brown, Alf E 23 Liverpool Head Toxteth Park Lancashire railway__ carter Brown, Emma 25 Toppington, Shropshire Wife Toxteth Park Brown, Alf Ed 6.12 Son Toxteth Park Lancashire Brown, Martha E 2 Toppington, Shropshire Daughter Toxteth Park Lancashire 70 ruby street toxteth park lancs 1901 Alfred Brown b1869 occ railway goods guard Emma Brown b1864 Martha Brown b1889 Alfred E Brown b1891 Henry Brown bNovember 25, 1895 Emily Brown b1896 Annie Brown b March 14, 1898 Thomas Brown b January 11, 1901 Alice Brown b March 3, 1903 New Lane, Eccles I cant find anyone else that looks anything like. Maybe I will have to look back at Alfred sen married to Selena and see if he had a brother George. What a nightmare! I just need someone elses opinion if this makes sense. love and feeling puzzled Jan x

Jan I'd be slightly wary of the change in occupations. In 1881 young Alfred seems to have been sent off to his uncle to learn the painting trade yet ten years later he's working as a railway carter. The father Alfred you have in 1871 (with wife Selena) is a Sail maker not a farmer - which is an even bigger leap of faith This family in 1871 are another possibility that you should consider: Alfred Brown 26 Melverley, Shropshire, England Head St Clement Lancashire Alfred C Brown 2 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son St Clement Lancashire Martha Brown 35 Great Ness, Shropshire, England Wife St Clement Lancashire WHat occupation do you have for younger ALfred in 1901?

Thank Zoe my Alfreds middle name is Edward this is confirmed on his childrens baptisms which I have seen at the FH place at Salford. in 1904 Alfred Brown is a bankman (im sure is also to do with railways?) I cannot find Alfred sen and Selina on 1881 young selina or Thomas lucky me follwing a name Brown (which was my original surname and baptised as brown too) anymore ideas Im open to offers. Jan x PS Alfred sen is desceased on Alf jnr marriage cert 1888

not that it solves the issue - but here's Selena the daughter and Thomas in 1891: 21 Treborth (?) Street, Toxteth Park Redfern, Annie W 2.12 Liverpool, Lancashire Daughter Toxteth Park Lancashire Redfern, Emma M 3 Liverpool, Lancashire Daughter Toxteth Park Lancashire Redfern, Selina E 25 Liverpool, Lancashire Wife Toxteth Park Lancashire Redfern, William Hy 27 Liverpool, Lancashire Head Toxteth Park Lancashire - postman Brown, Thomas M 22 Liverpool, Lancashire Brother-in-law Toxteth Park Lancashire - hairdresser

Mother Selina death?? Name:   Brown, Selina Record Type:   Deaths Age at death:   36 Quarter:   September Year:   1881 District:   Toxteth Park  County:   Lancashire Volume:   8b Page:   225

Emma Cox Alfreds wife was living in Eccles,Salford in 1881 Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability James C. MATHER Head M Male 46 Whitefield, Lancashire, England Gentleman Sarah MATHER Wife M Female 45 Eccles, Lancashire, England Housekeeper Amelia MATHER Daur U Female 16 Lower Broughton, Lancashire, England Emma COX Serv U Female 15 Soppington, Shropshire, England Domestic Servant Dwelling 144 Trafford Rd Census Place Barton Upon Irwell, Lancashire, England Family History Library Film 1341927 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 3882 / 46 Page Number 19 So somewhere Eccles must link to Emma. Maybe he got bored with painting?? there is a direct link from Liverpool to Eccles via the train maybe thats how they met. Its just the Alfred I found is the only one who links up with what I have so far. Thanks millions Zoe for finding me this Selina maybe their parents died I will look into that too. Anymore input as ever is greatfully received. Jan x

Alfred father death??? Name:   Brown, Alfred Record Type:   Deaths Age at death:   46 Quarter:   March Year:   1881 District:   Toxteth Park  County:   Lancashire Volume:   8b Page:   255

ah joys of being online at the same time lol yes it could well be. Maybe thats why they moved to Toxteth Park in 1891? I am more convinced that maybe this one is correct Ill have a look to see if Ruby street is near to treborth street ooooohhh youve got me going now I was going to mow the lawn ah but its full of flying ants out there so ill have to keep at this well that what ill tell my husband lol Jan x

Seems spooky as ages are very similar! Deaths Mar 1881 Brown Alfred 46 Toxteth Park 8b 255

lol snap! possible I suppose Its odd the volume pages are the same but are registered in very different quarters surley someone will have died in the mean time??? Jan x

I know this isn't all stuff you've asked for - its just in case it helps you set things out in your own head ;o) George S Brown in 1871 24 Longfellow STreet, Toxteth Park George S Brown 42 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Toxteth Park Lancashire - Plumber William S Brown 17 Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire - apprentice to plumber Mary E Brown 14 Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England Daughter Toxteth Park Lancashire Alfred Brown 10 Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire George Brown 6 Everton, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire Caleb Brown 1 Everton, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire census definitely says that he's married not widowed

you know Jan I never even noticed the page numbers. I suppose maybe there were SO many deaths they went through another book and conicidentally got up to the same page again. Als fairly possible if all BMD go in one book. Not sure how it works.

only George Brown that is close in age on 1891 is aged 61 and he's in prison!!!! but I checked for you and he was a sailor so the family name remains honourable ;o)

From IGI **I'd double check this as i've been told not to totally trust batch numbers that dont start with C for christenings**** 1. ALFRED BROWN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 18 FEB 1833 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England Parents:   Father:  WILLIAM BROWN Family   Mother:  ELIZABETH 2. GEORGE SCONGAL BROWN - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 12 FEB 1829 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England Parents:   Father:  WILLIAM BROWN Family   Mother:  ELIZABETH

I wonder then if Alfred sen and George were brothers after all maybe when Alfred and Selena died (maybe same time but for some reason they got mixed reg months do you think this could be possible?) Alfred went to live with uncle George and had to take on the trade as painter as George was and as he got older went on to be a train whatever. I also found this on IGI too SELINA ELIZABETH BROWN Birth: 02 JUL 1865 Christening: 23 AUG 1865 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, Father: ALFRED BROWN Family Mother: SELINA None for Alfred or Thomas from what I can see. Im sure this must be him you know Zoe, everything seems to fit too well. I wonder if I order the death certs who registered the deaths and what they died of (Im a morbid bugger lol mind you in the past I found loads of extra stuff on them their occupations and everything) Im going to do it. I will do some fishing on the areas too and see if there is a link there. Thanks millions for your help today Zoe love Jan x

I have looked up the surname Scongal too it doesnt yeild much at all the only one on 1881 is in Surrey but seems also to appear in Scotland the quest goes on. jan x