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please look at this and tell me your thoughts???? Many thanks

Right my problem is as follows….. Certificate Info… Edwin Joseph Thomas Coulby born 13 January 1913 Mile End London. To Parents William Lawrence Coulby Stoker( Royal navy) and Ellen Jane Coulby formerly Mills. This leads me to their Marriage cert……. August 1st 1909 Stepney London. Ellen Jane Mills 27 spinster etc( won’t give all details as not relevant) William Lawrance Coulby 26 Bachelor sailor father William Coulby Labourer. Right so far straight forward yes???? It is the Coulby line I’m confused with so, next is William Lawreance’s birth cert…..(this is where my problems starts) William Lawrence Coulby 4 October 1883 St George In The East ( sub district StPaul) Parents… William Coulby Dock Labourer Elizabeth Coulby formerly Borrett (maybe ll instead of tt but is definatly rr) So it should be the case of finding a marriage cert for William Snr and Elizabeth?? WRONG………. I can only find a certificate for Thomas William Coulby I thought maybe he had used his second name not an uncommon thing. So I request it but only if he’s marrying an Elizabeth. Back comes the cert as follows…. August 27 1882 Christchurch in the district of St Pauls. Thomas William Coulby 22 bachelor Labourer father John Dec’d Elizabeth Hazzell 21 spinster father James Is it the right cert?????? Am I on the right track???? Census info 1901 William Lawerance (Jnr) is away on a ship sp that ties in with his marrage cert and his son’s birth. The rest of the family are at home in Stepney .. Thomas W Coulby 39 Rotherhithe Elizabeth 38 Rotherhithe Elizabeth 15 St George Ellen 11 “ Florence E 10 Margaret 8 Thomas 6 1891 St George in the East J W Coulby 31 Rotherhithe (Could be TW??) Elizabeth 30 “” William 11 St George Elizabeth 8 “ Ellen 1 “ Florence 3mths “ 1881 No sign of Elizabeth Borrett /Hazzell (Father James from marriage) Theres one Thomas Coulby of the right age but he’s lodging (How inconsiderate?) 1871 John Coulby 39 widow born Calypole Lincs Thomas W 11 born Rotherhithe I think this is my man with his dad John. They are lodgers in Rotherhithe The ages add up, just about in the census and certificate information, to make me think I have the right family. I can account for Thomas William becoming William, as people appeared to change name at random then. But what confuses me is the Hazzell/ Borrett bit?? I also can’t find a birth for Thomas William Anywhere?? The only one I can find is up north which does not tie in at all. Does anyone see something I am missing??? Am sorry for being so longwinded but without all the facts it’s hard to show my confusion. Many thanks for reading this Shelli

Diane thanks for looking. Even if the LL or TT is wrong how on earth do you get from B as in Borrett to H as in Hazzell??? They don't even sound alike As to driving me mad i went mad long time ago LOL Shelli

Shelli When they are being transcribed from what can sometimes only be called scribble on a very old document which has probably lost a bit in the filming, B could become an H. Depends on how the transcriber sees it. Have you seen the hand written indices with a rolling scrawl running two words into one. Stare at it long enough and it becomes more clear.

Shelli My thoughts are that Borrett/ll and Hazzell could easily be misread - B only differs from H in having the top & bottom gap closed, my rs sometimes look a bit like zs. nell

Thanks evryone for your input. i guess in this game anything is possible LOL Maz the marriage you found is the one i have the cert for and i also have the birth of elizabeth from 1860. The death at present is unrelated. Thanks to She Wray for plodding thru this with me today. Have realised that the entry for Thomas William Coulby born Rotherham is an incorrect entry on the idexes. On freebmd, it say rotherham 9d, on 1837 it states Rotherham 1d!!!! It should be Rotherhithe, but even the orginal index at Southprt states Rotherham. ONS have confirmed this mistake, am not quite sure how i order the cert now but am sure i'll get round it one way or the other. Many thanks for everyones input

Shelli, are you sure this is the right family? 1891 St George in the East J W Coulby 31 Rotherhithe (Could be TW??) Elizabeth 30 “” William 11 St George Elizabeth 8 “ Ellen 1 “ Florence 3mths “ Your William Lawrence would only be 7 at this point. Crista

Crista Sorry my mistake lol William was 7 not 11 it's just very curly writing, hes been put above his elder sister, and i can't think of any more excuses lol if you have access to 1891 the ref is RG12 Piece286 Folio40 Page33 (think I've labeled them correctly) Shellixx

Shelli, Just looked at the image. It is a T and not a J. Ages are as follows: T.W. Caulby 31 Elizth 30 William 7 Elizth 5 Ellen 1 Florence ?? months Crista

Crista i stand corrected lol, my excuse is i have been looking and looking at this lot for ages now and going nowhere fast. After speaking to ONS today I have placed an order for the mistranscribes birth Thomas William Coulby 1860 hopefully it will come ok. I did add a note explaining as even their record state rotherham Vol 1D!!!! The mother maiden name on William Lawrences birth and the name on the marriage cert still confuses me but thinki may order one of the siblings birth cert to solve that. I just need to rob the bank to fund this all ;_((( Hope all is ok with you over the sea lol Shelli

Shelli, There's this family in 1871: Name Age in 1871 Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island = Elizabeth Barrett 10 Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Daughter Rotherhithe London Frances Barrett 14 Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Daughter Rotherhithe London James Barrett 52 Pinchbeck, Lincolnshire, England Head Rotherhithe London Susan Barrett 48 Lynn, Norfolk, England Wife Rotherhithe London William Barrett 18 Lynn, Norfolk, England Son Rotherhithe London and here they are in 1881: Household: Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability James BARRETT Head W Male 62 Lincoln, England Genl Laborer Elizabeth BARRETT Daur U Female 20 Rothithe, Surrey, England Domestic Serv Out Employ Source Information: Dwelling 5 Mariners Blds Census Place Rotherhithe, Surrey, England Family History Library Film 1341131 Public Records Office Reference RG11 Piece / Folio 0576 / 84 Page Number 26 How does this address compare to the one on the marriage cert? Crista

On the marriage: Thomas William Coulby 22 bachelor Labourer father John Dec’d Elizabeth Hazzell 21 spinster father James does Elizabeth sign her name? It might be worth while trying to get a copy of the original marriage from the parish register to see what that looks like, in case it's a mistranscription. An alternative is that Elizabeth had an alias, possibly because of an illegitimacy somewhere in the family. Brenda

Crista **************************** I don't know how you do it but you've managed to do it again for me!!!! That is my Elizabeth. It doesn't compare to the marriage cert because that just states Christchurch district. BUT on the her birth cert !860 it states 2 Mariners Buildings!!!! So On her sons birth cert in 1883 she's a Borrett, Her marrage cert in 1882 she's Hazzell, Her birth cert in 1860 shes' a Hazzell, BUT census info 1871 & 1881 tells me shes a Barrett. Confused?? I sure am now LOL Any thoughts???? Brenda I'll certainly look into trying to see the orginal, may shed some light. Shelli

Shelli, Forogt to add they were living at 2 Mariners Building in 1871. What's Susan's maiden name? Had she been married before? The only thing I noticed is that perhaps Hazzell IS Barrett if you allow for some really bad transcribing. An H could look like a B and I see plenty on Ts that look like Ls on censuses because they haven't been crossed. I haven't really convinced myself about Zs becoming Rs but it's something to think about. Crista

Crista was thinking about this on the school run LOL On Elizabeth birth cert the mother is Susan indicating that this is the correct family. Susan's maiden name is Sexton. As to the bad mistranscribing ????? The birth cert of William Lawerance is clearly B while the marriage cert and birth cert of Elizabeth is clearly a H. But these are certs that have come from ONS not local offices, so there would be many places that the mistranscribing could've happened. I think!!! So it look like i have the correct family, as to why the name changes ????? I would understand it more if it changed and was the same ever after but it appears to swap back and forth. Thanks for all your help :-)))))) Shelli P.s. how likely is it that two documents got transcribed wronly?? because both elizabeth marr(1882) and birth(1860) certs are in the name of Hazzell. I think for what ever reason the family had two surnames. 1860 Hazzell ( her birth cert) 1871 Barrett ( census) 1881 Barrett (census) 1882 Hazzell ( marr cert) 1883 Barrett ( son B cert) am gonna look in 1861 and see what surname they are using there

Crista just looked at the 1871 and living with the Barrets is a Mary Sexton as a lodger. So another piece of the puzzle i think Shelli

Crista, just to add another twist.... with the help of Lynda, found them in 1861. James Hazzle 42 Norfolk Next Lynn Sussannah 37 Norfolk Next Lynn john 1? Norfolk Next Lynn William 8 Norfolk Next Lynn Frances 5 Rotherhithe Elizabeth ??? Mths Rotherhithe in 2 Mariners buildings Trinty St Rotherhithe. So this time James has changed where he's born, as well as surnames. Will this family never make up their minds?????? So now i have 1860 Hazzell ( her birth cert) 1861 Hazzle (census) 1871 Barrett ( census) 1881 Barrett (census) 1882 Hazzell ( marr cert) 1883 Barrett ( son B cert) they are not consistant anywhere?????? Shelli