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Lisa, If the marriage took place it will be on 1837online. It must just be at a different time to what you think. Kath. x

Dear Kath Thank you for looking for that marriage aswell. As you can see I am having a real stuggle as I cannot go back really any further even though I know the names with real proof. So I really need the marriage for William clements and lucy chapman. I will have to keep hunting. Do you know where else I can look. Once again thanks for your help. Kindest Regards Lisa

I've looked on 1837online for 1913, 1914 and 1915 and there isn't a marriage of a William Clements to a Cooper in any of those years. Kath. x

Dear Jim Thanks for those census. William Clements born in 1876 is as elusive as the rest of my williams. He did (we think) not marry although my grandad and great aunt is adamant that he did. There is no marriage for William Clements and Emily Cooper nee Holbard. (She married William Cooper on 3 August 1912) My Grandad was born in 1915 and my Aunt Nell in 1917 and we cannot find the marriage of their parents or grandparents. They are definitely Clements though and then the Clements carry on. Hence my mystery of no marriages. Speak to you soon and thankyou again. Lisa

To bring census info as far as we can Here is the family in 1891 Clements, Annie abt 1889 Midlands, Tottenham Daughter Tottenham Middlesex Clements, Frederick abt 1882 Midlands, Tottenham Son Tottenham Middlesex Clements, Lizzie abt 1879 Midlands, Tottenham Daughter Tottenham Middlesex Clements, Lucy abt 1853 Shirfield Parish Wife Tottenham Middlesex Clements, Rose abt 1885 Midlands, Tottenham Daughter Tottenham Middlesex Clements, William abt 1851 Braughing Parish Head Tottenham Middlesex Clements, William abt 1877 Midlands, Tottenham Son Tottenham Middlesex and in 1901 Ada Clements abt 1892 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter Edmonton Middlesex Annie Clements abt 1889 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter Edmonton Middlesex Charles Clements abt 1893 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son Edmonton Middlesex Frederick Clements abt 1882 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son Edmonton Middlesex Lucy Clements abt 1858 Sherfield, Hertfordshire, England Wife Edmonton Middlesex Rose Clements abt 1886 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter Edmonton Middlesex William Clements abt 1852 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Head Edmonton Middlesex William Clements abt 1877 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son Edmonton Middlesex Presumably young William got married shortly afterwards. Do you have a date to be checked? JIm

Jim, No Lucy Anne Chapman marriage in corresponding qtrs and district. Kath. x

There is a marriage of William Clements in Royston area in March quarter 1873. FreeBMD record is complete so can not see wife on that site.Don't have1837 myself. There's anotjher in Seprmenber quarter 1873. Would have expected later date myself. Jim

Hi Lisa, Have you got your great grandad's birth certificate? You say his birth shows his mother as Lucy Clements, so I assume you have got the birth certificate. However, just because it shows them as married, and with the name Clements, formerly Chapman, doesn't necessarily mean they were married. I've seen occasions when a couple have said they were married on a child's birth certificate, only to find that they married in the months after the birth. People did tell little white lies. As they give their son's birthplace as Tottenham on the 1881 census perhaps the marriage happened there, which would be the Edmonton district. Haven't found a marriage in either Bishop's Stortford or Edmonton yet though. Have to go out now, but I'll come back to this thread later. Kath. x

Dear Kath Once again haven't got the other message you sent. Quite new to this site and finding your way around with the messages. I haven't been on the 1837 site before. The info you asked about is that Lucy was in Hertfordshire in 1871 and had an illegitimate son which she left behind!! By the 1881 census she is with William Clements in Edmonton Middlesex and it shows them having a William Clements who is my Great Grandad. His birth shows her as Lucy Clements so I presume William and Lucy married between 1871 and 1876. I have searched at the FRC and couldn't find the marriage and I thought it was complete records up there. Kindest Regards Lisa

Dear Jim Thank you for that information. William born in 1876 that you have shown me is my direct line ancestor. Thank you. Lisa

Here is 81 census. Lucy born 1854 Eldest child born 1876 assuming no early deaths Elizabeth Clements abt 1879 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Daughter 12 Brunswick Buildg, Tottenham, Middlesex, England Henry Clements abt 1881 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son 12 Brunswick Buildg, Tottenham, Middlesex, England Lucy A. Clements abt 1854 Therfield, Hertfordshire, England Wife 12 Brunswick Buildg, Tottenham, Middlesex, England William Clements abt 1853 Bradford, Hertfordshire, England Head 12 Brunswick Buildg, Tottenham, Middlesex, England William Clements abt 1876 Tottenham, Middlesex, England Son 12 Brunswick Buildg, Tottenham, Middlesex, England Jim

Hi Lisa, I did reply to your personal message with the information. I found the birth on 1837online, which is a pay per view website. It has the complete BMD index from 1837 up till 2003. You will find the mariage there too. If you can narrow down the years when the marriage took place a bit I can have a look for you, but 10 years is a bit expensive to look through. Kath. x

Thank you Kath again and sorry I posted the message wrong. Hope I'm in the correct place now. Can you let me know where you found the reference so that I know where to look as I couldn't find it at the FRC after searching through years and years of books. At the same time as searching for the birth my mum and I searched for his marriage to Lucy Anne Chapman. They married between 1871 and 1881. In the 1881 census they are married but living in Edmonton Middlesex. In 1871 Lucy is still in Hertfordshire. Can you let me know where to search for this marriage as well if possible. Thank you for your help. Kindest Regards Lisa

Looks like Albert and Catherine were twins Jim

Lisa now has the birth reference, as she sent me a pm asking where I found it. LISA - it is best to reply on the thread rather than by pm, then everyone who has helped knows that you have seen the information on the thread. Kath. x

Family on 1861 census - different spelling Albert Clemence abt 1857 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Braughing Hertfordshire Catherine Clemence abt 1857 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Braughing Hertfordshire Charles Clemence abt 1826 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Head Braughing Hertfordshire Fanny Clemence abt 1850 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Braughing Hertfordshire Henry Clemence abt 1854 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Braughing Hertfordshire Kesiah Clemence abt 1823 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Wife Braughing Hertfordshire William Clemence abt 1852 Braughing, Hertfordshire, England Braughing Hertfordshire Jim

Other christenings to Charles and Kezia FANNY CLEMENTS Female -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 19 AUG 1849 Braughing, Hertford, England ** CHARLES HENRY CLEMENTS Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 29 APR 1855 Braughing, Hertford, England ** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ALBERT CLEMENTS Male -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 26 JUL 1857 Braughing, Hertford, England ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CATHERINE CLEMENTS Female -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: Christening: 26 JUN 1857 Braughing, Hertford, England Jim

Why do you think father was William? Jim

wedding of Charles and Kezia -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CHARLES CLEMENTS Male Family -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages: Spouse: KEZIA DELLOW Family Marriage: 24 OCT 1848 Braughing, Hertford, England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Messages: Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Source Information: Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type: M072194 1838 - 1894 1040807 IT 2 Film NONE Sheet: Jim

This is the birth reference:- William Clements Dec. qtr. 1851, B. Stortford, VI(?), page 500 Kath. x