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Trisha If it helps, I think this is the birth record for Elizabeth's older son: Births Dec 1883 Jones Price Arnold West Derby 8b 283 Suzy

Hi Trisha I think the 1901 census found by Marie looks very interesting. It seems to me that Thomas and Elizabeth were both married before; bringing children to their second marriage, and then having their own son, Frank. Also the marriage found by Marie seems to tie in. On the 1901, Frank has the middle initial 'H' which ties in with the birth record I found. If you can afford it, it may be worth your while buying both birth and marriage certs; you can ask for a checking reference on the birth record for Frank Hatton, ie father's name. Suzy

Hi Maria, Your much better at this than me, the other marriage and census might be even better with it being Toxteth Park rather than Everton. I'm so grateful for all this info. Kind Regards Trisha

Hi Suzie and Maria, I'm actually starting to feel excited, that diffinately looks like a possible birth record for Frank and Marriage for Thomas, I can't believe it! and the name Annie as the head of household on that 1901 census would tie that in also. If this is real it will blow me away. Kind Regards Trisha

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1892 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference O'BRIEN Thomas JONES Elizabeth Toxteth Park, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_TP/14/30

found this occupation for thomas is painter 1901 View Record Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Civil Parish County/Island View Image View Record Elizabeth Brien abt 1853 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England Wife Toxteth Park Lancashire View Record Frank H Brien abt 1892 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire View Record Thomas O Brien abt 1840 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Toxteth Park Lancashire View Record William A Brien abt 1878 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Toxteth Park Lancashire View Record Elizabeth S Jones abt 1889 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Stepdaughter Toxteth Park Lancashire View Record Price A Jones abt 1884 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Stepson Toxteth Park Lancashire

Hi Jennifer, I think I'd seen this one and got put off by the 2 year age difference, but in hindsight you may be right, I just don't know how to confirm it, I guess I'd need to find a birth cert with a Thomas & Annie as parents. Hi Gwyneth, The witness names don't mean anything to me - Albert Edward England & Eveline Shone. Kind Regards Trisha

Name: Thos Obrien Age: 47 Estimated birth year: abt 1844 Relation: Lodger Gender: Male Where Born: Liverpool Civil parish: West Derby Ecclesiastical parish: St Catherine County/Island: Lancashire Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Source information: RG12/2994 Registration district: West Derby Sub registration district: West Derby (Municipal) ED, institution, or vessel: 33 Folio: 113 Page: 13 (click to see others on page) GSU Number: 6098104 occupation painter

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1887 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference O'BRIEN Thomas MCCOY Annie West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_WD/111/97 possible marriage

There is this birth: Births Sep 1892 O'Brien Frank Hatton Toxteth Park 8b 156 Suzy

I think, - but I'm not sure, that only head of household were shown at that time, rather than all men over 21. Lists should be in a local main library or archive. Who were the witnesses, - any clues there? Gwyn

This looks like him in 1901, there is no Father listed. Katie Dailey abt 1873 Isle of Man, Isle of Man Boarder Everton Lancashire Annie O'brien abt 1868 Coventry, Warwickshire, England Head Everton Lancashire Frank O'brien abt 1889 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Everton Lancashire Henry O'brien abt 1887 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Son Everton Lancashire Ruby O'brien abt 1890 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Everton Lancashire Source information: RG13/3485 Registration district: West Derby Sub-registration district: South Everton ED, institution, or vessel: 40 Folio: 59 Page: 2 Jennifer

Hi, No I don't have them on census, as he didn't get married till 1913. I can't find him as a single man in 1901 I keep thinking is it possible to do an address search in1913 to see if he was living with any other family? Regards Trisha

Trisha Have you got them on any census? Suzy

Well O,Brian is a good Irish name & lots came to Liverpool & settled there. You may well be right that they arrived as a married couple. Were there any mor e children after they settled in Liverpool and do they show on any census.? Shirley

I've so fed up not being able to crack this one branch of my tree. All the info I have is from a marriage certificate dated 14.12.1913. Frank O'Brien aged 22 Van Driver living at 79 Selborne Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool father Thomas O'Brien Painter & Decorator Journeyman. I've been trying to find Frank(not frances) and his father Thomas for months to no avail. I can't find their births here in the UK, so I'm just assuming they must have come from Ireland. Any Ideas much appreciated. Kind Regards Trisha