Find Ancestors

This is a confusing one. I can't work out whether Adelheid and Maria / Mary Ann are the same person or two different people! One thing you could do is to get the birth certificate for one of the Webb children - George or John - to see what the mother's details are on it. Also, what are the details given for Adelheid (and her father) on the marriage certificate? Maybe we can find her on a census. And who are the witnesses on the marriage certificate? (Herman and Adelheid's, I mean, though I suppose the witnesses on James's might come in useful too, actually!) Had a look at the GRO birth index for Jun 1881 but there was no James Webb registered in Bermondsey for that quarter. Not much help! Kate.

This is the 2 Webb children on the 1881 census mothers name Mary Ann she has an infant child 1 month old, could be James from the 1891 census? Name: John Webb Age: 4 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877 Relation: Lodger Son Gender: Male Where Born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England Civil parish: Bermondsey County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 31 Crosby Row Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: St Olave Southwark Sub registration district: Leather Market ED, institution, or vessel: 7 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age George Webb 8 Infant Webb John Webb 4 Mary Ann Webb 37 Georgina.

So it COULD be possible that the marriage cert may be right! Oh dear...how confusing! Well that you all for trying to help at least now I know that it wasn't just me missing something blatently obvious! Thank you all so much for your time an efforts. Bed time for me too Caroline xx

Bedtime for me too i'm afraid. Sorry i can't help more than i have. Glen

Caroline, a couple of points: - Although ancestry have decided to show 'mother's name' on census transcriptions, there is actually no such information given on the census return so this is misleading. What you usually have is the male head of household, his wife, and the children. So Mary Ann / Maria could be his second wife and the stepmother to the children. But of course Mary Ann / Maria could be Adelheid's nickname. - Often the man's stepchildren will be listed on the census as his children with his surname. So it could be that the children had a different surname at birth. Sorry but I have to go to bed now but if I get the chance to go on the computer tomorrow I will see if I can find anything more specific to help. Kate.

Hi Caroline I have had ancestors who have changed their names on censuses. So rightly or wrongly I think that it is possible that Adelheid changed her name for census purposes to something less germanic and easier for the enumerator spell. Hope this helps.I have also checked for births of the children on 1837online in all quarters and all name variations from 1880 to 1886 and not found them. Sorry couldn't be of assistance with birth records Diane

Sorry didn't see Georginas' post,don't know what to suggest. Glen

The marriage cert says Herman Steljes married Adelheid Steljes on 12 Oct 1882 you can see the fun I am having with the different ways that the names are spelt!

Checked Ancestry and the spelling is Stelljes Glen

Yep, I thought that I had struck lucky when I found that too but the Herman married Adelheid not Maria Salt or at least that is what the cert says....any chance that could be wrong?

Found this on freebmd -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages Dec 1882 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Salt Maria St. Geo. East 1c 903 Steljes Adelheid St. Geo. East 1c 903 Steljes Herman St. Geo. East 1c 903 Tweddle John Irving St. Geo. East 1c 903

Hi Georgina That is the cert that I ordered that came today.... I assume that Herman and Adelheid were cousins as they married...the only possiblilty is that Adelheid called herself Maria or Mary Ann on the census returns??? Do you think it is possible?

Caroline have you discounted this one? Marriages Dec 1882 Salt Maria St. Geo. East 1c 903 Steljes Adelheid St. Geo. East 1c 903 Steljes Herman St. Geo. East 1c 903 Tweddle John Irving St. Geo. East 1c 903 Georgina.

Herman 1881? Recorded as unmarried 1881 England Census Record about Herman Stellyes Name: Herman Stellyes Age: 23 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858 Relation: Son Mother's name: Mary Gender: Male Where Born: St Georges Civil parish: Shoreditch County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 2 Baising House Yd Education: Employment status: View image Occupation: Table Maker (Cab M) Registration district: Shoreditch Sub registration district: St Leonard ED, institution, or vessel: 5 Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Henry Stellyes 26 >>>>>Herman Stellyes 23 Mary Stellyes 60 glen

Yes Glen, I think that is them. In the 1901 census the Mother is down as Mary Ann.

Thank you very much for trying to help...I suppose I have just got to accept this is one of those brick walls that we hit sometimes. Caroline xx

Was Mary Ann the mother? From the 1891 (granted the spelling is different but with the christian names being the same for the children) 1891 England Census Record about Herman Stellies Name: Herman Stellies Age: 40 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851 Relation: Head Spouses's Name: Maria Gender: Male Where Born: Whitechapel, London, England Civil parish: Bethnal Green Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthews County/Island: London Country: England Registration district: Bethnal Green Sub registration district: Bethnal Green North ED, institution, or vessel: 20a Neighbors: View others on page Household Members: Name Age Herman Stellies 40 James Stellies 10 Maria Stellies 43 Maria Stellies 7 George Webb 18 John Webb 14 Glen

Thanks for looking! I had ordered a marriage cert for Herman but when it came through today it was for Herman Stellyes and Adelheid Stellyes. ( I suppose this could have been his cousin??) But there was no mention of a Mary Ann on the cert.

You won't get her maiden name from the death cert. I can't see any births for 1881-1885. Births were sometimes not registered,but it might be better to look for the marriage.Births needed someone to go to the registrar,marriages were conducted in the presence of a registrar,and in theory can't be unregistered. Glen

I think I have found the death record of the mother Mary Ann but I am not certain. If I order this will it give me her Maiden name? I know the birth cert of her children should but this is where I am completely stumped!