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I have a census from 1891 showing Sarah Ann Williams b c1878 (b. Wigan), her mother Ann b c1855 (b. Wales) Dressmaker and the mother's two grandchildren Elizabeth and John Atkinson (aged 4 and 5). At the time of the census the family were living in Stockport. Sarah Ann was married in April 1894 to William Coates, her father is shown as Elias Williams a coal miner (no mention of being deceased). The marriage took place in Chester le Street and the couple are resident at Thomas Street, Craghead. The witnesses are an Elias and Ann Williams (presume her parents). I would like to find out where Ann and Elias Williams came from but have had no luck in the 1881 census so any help would be appreciated. Many thanks

1891 for info & cross ref Ann Williams abt 1844 Wales Head St Mary Cheshire Sarah Williams abt 1878 Wigan, Lancashire, England Daughter John T Atkinson abt 1886 Stockport, Cheshire, England Grandson St Mary Elizabeth A Atkinson abt 1887 Stockport, Cheshire, England Granddaughter 1881 - could be them?? With the name Elias there too. WDYT?? I'll trace them forwards into 1891 so we can rule them out if I find them! *** UPDATE NOT THEM. Unfortunately found them with another Ann in 1891. I'll try again. Ann Williams abt 1847 Ashton, Lancashire, England Head Edward Williams abt 1871 Ashton, Lancashire, England Son Elias Williams abt 1880 Orrell, Lancashire, England Son James Williams abt 1874 Upholland, Lancashire, England Son Margaret Williams abt 1866 Ashton, Lancashire, England Daughter Sarah Anne Williams abt 1878 Tyldsley, Lancashire, England Daughter Thomas Williams abt 1868 Ashton, Lancashire, England Son 1871 (although this would then mean 1891 was wrong as this family is also there - separately if you know what I mean!) Ann Williams abt 1843 Ashton IN Makerfield, Lancashire, England Wife Ashton IN Makerfield Edward Williams abt 1871 Ashton IN Makerfield, Lancashire, England Son Elias Williams abt 1841 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Head John Williams abt 1862 Haydock, Lancashire, England Son Margaret A Williams abt 1865 Haydock, Lancashire, England Daughter Thomas Williams abt 1868 Haydock, Lancashire, England Son

1871? Elias is a Coal Miner, Address Lily Lane Ann Williams Elias abt 1843 Ashton IN Makerfield, Lancashire, England Wife Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire Edward Williams Elias,Ann abt 1871 Ashton IN Makerfield, Lancashire, England Son Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire Elias Williams Ann abt 1841 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Head Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire John Williams Elias,Ann abt 1862 Haydock, Lancashire, England Son Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire Margaret A Williams Elias,Ann abt 1865 Haydock, Lancashire, England Daughter Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire Thomas Williams Elias,Ann abt 1868 Haydock, Lancashire, England Son Ashton IN Makerfield Lancashire Linda

Linda that looks promising but I think it's the same family I found, and they are in 1891 elsewhere unfortunately. Odd, can't find them in Wales either. Mags.

Thank you both - not looking promising this is it!? Thought with a name like Elias it would be easy!!! The family story was that Sarah was from Wales but, if the 1891 census is correct, she isn't. I've looked on the IGI and found her not being christened until 09/08/1886 in Wigan if right person (mother Anne, father Elias) with a brother Benjamin born 19/06/1886. Is this any help? Possibly she was born elsewhere and the family moved to Wigan?

Thanks Ozibird - could you please clarify where Mary was born - is it Wales or England?

Just looked up Mostyn - it's in North Wales near Prestatyn so might be a lead there - maybe Sarah was born there?

Brilliant - thank for the second one for Mary, think that confirms the Welsh connection then!

AAAAAHH, just realised you've got Jacob Williams as a widowed father...either something has been mis-transcribed or I might have the wrong Sarah Williams on the 1891 census to start with!???

Sorry!!! Your 1901 census is certainly correct (when Sarah is married to William). The details I've mentioned from the wedding cert are correct as far as I'm aware (only probably marriage for the correct dates and areas) so father Elias (Miner) - an Ann has signed as witness but if the 1891 census someone found for me isn't right this may not be her mother? The IGI searches seem to tie up though - Sarah Ann Williams birth 28/04/77 christened 09/08/1886 and 'brother' Benjamin born 19/06/1886 Christened Wigan 09/08/1886 - father Elias, mother Anne. I'll have to log off now but will come back to this tomorrow and do some more investigating of my own in the meantime.... Just realised the address at marriage might be some help - married 07/04/1894 from 72 Thomas Street, Craghead, Co.Durham....Have tried to search for it in 1901 but can't narrow the search down to the address, only the road. Many thanks to anyone who can help and many apologies for the confusion!

Ozibird You beat me to it, found the same. Linda

1901 Elias now a Widower Elias Williams Age: 60 Estimated birth year: abt 1841 Relation: Head Gender: Male Where born: Cinderfort, Gloucestershire, England Civil parish: Brandon and Byshottles Ecclesiastical parish: Brandon St John the Evangelist County/Island: Durham Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Education: Employment status: View image Registration district: Durham Sub-registration district: St Oswald ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 87 Household Members: Name Age Harriet Hobson 20 Benjamin Williams 14 Elias Williams 60 Elias Williams 21 Elizabeth Williams 17 John Williams 1 month William H Williams 18 Benjamin Williams Elias abt 1887 Abram, Lancashire, England Son Brandon and Byshottles Durham Elias Williams abt 1841 Cinderfort, Gloucestershire, England Head Brandon and Byshottles Durham Elias Williams Elias abt 1880 Orsett, Lancashire, England Son Brandon and Byshottles Durham Elizabeth Williams Elias abt 1884 Abram, Lancashire, England Daughter Brandon and Byshottles Durham John Williams abt 1901 Littlebourn, Durham, England Grandson Brandon and Byshottles Durham William H Williams Elias abt 1883 Abram, Lancashire, England Son Brandon and Byshottles Durham

Could be Elias Birth Births Jun 1840 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Williams Elias Westbury on Severn 11 468 Possible Marriages Surname First name(s) District Vol Page -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages Mar 1861 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ashurst Ann Wigan 8c 9 Williams Elias Wigan 8c 9 Marriages Sep 1858 (>99%) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welsh Ann Maria Liverpool 8b 230 Williams Elias Liverpool 8b 230 Could also be Elias in 1841 Data Source: 1841 England Census View Record Name Estimated birth year Birthplace Civil parish County/Island View Image View Record Elias William abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire View Record Edward Williams abt 1806 Dean Forest Gloucestershire View Record Edward Williams abt 1837 Dean Forest Gloucestershire View Record John Williams abt 1835 Dean Forest Gloucestershire View Record Sarah Williams abt 1806 Dean Forest Gloucestershire View Record Sarah Williams abt 1833 Dean Forest Gloucestershire Linda

Hello - wow you have all been very busy in my absence! I think you've hit the nail on the head, no Welsh connection then (although I suppose Ross on Wye/Forst of Dean (where Cinderford is) is close). Everything seems to tie up apart from the 1841 Bristol record. I think this Elias is too old going by the other censuses and it seems more likely that the one in 'Dean Forest' is correct, age of Elias is right in relation to the other cenuses (b. c1840) and the area is correct. Linda - do you have the occupations for any of this lot please? Not sure about that marriage in Liverpool, seems a bit of a way to go but possible I suppose. I'll have to look more into it. Many thanks yet again for the huge amount of information you have provided!!! Kind regards Helen

Update - I've found a probable marriage for Elias and Ann - Ann Ashurst to Elias Williams Wigan (8c 9) March Quarter 1861. Their first child appears to have been born c1862 in Haydock which appears to be half way between Wigan and Liverpool where the other marriage was found (what date was this one?). Ann is described as being from Wigan or Ashton In Makerfield on various censuses (Ashton is slightly to the North East of Haydock and presumably falls under the umbrella of Wigan) and seems likely that they would marry in the town the wife was from I think for I'm inclined to lean towards the Wigan marriage as being slightly closer. Ann would have been only about 18 at the age of marriage. I've tried the IGI for any records for Elias b c1840 Forest of Dean but can't find anything that seems to be in the correct area. Did you have a village or any other details for this 1841 census please Linda? Many thanks!

Hi Helen 1841, Edward was a Cinderfiller (or at least that what it looks like) Elias William Age: 1 Estimated birth year: abt 1840 Household: View other family members Gender: Male Where born: Gloucestershire, England Civil parish: Dean Forest Hundred: St Briavells County/Island: Gloucestershire Country: England Street address: Occupation: View image Source information: HO107/364/9 Registration district: Ross Sub-registration district: Ross ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Folio: 8 Page: 11 (click to see others on page) Line number: 17 GSU Number: 288776 If you would like the images of the Censi, please pm me with your email address and I will send on to you Regards Linda

Thank you so very much Linda, it is very kind of you to offer to send the census page. I've emailed you my email address. Kind regards Helen