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Finally had a chance to look through all of this and piece it together. It took a while to follow it but I think I've got to the bottom of it. The only thing I don't know is how you all managed to find this information so easily. Is there an easy way to find the BMD information that I am missing?

Thanks again for all your help!

Hello all,

Thanks for all your help with this. I am still trying to get my head around all of this but don't have the time at the moment to match your information up with the tree that I have built.

From what I can see the suggestion is that Philip had two wives and it would seem that Ellen was a child of Mary's earlier marriage that then took the Arden name once her mother remarried.

Thanks again for your help!

Other children from first marriage see census 1841 previously posted, children of Philip & Jane?


Name: Elizabeth Arden
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 5 Jul 1851
Parish: Liverpool St Bride
Spouse's Name: Gilbert Bankes Gough - tobacco manufacturer
Father's Name: Philip Arden - hoopmaker
Spouse Father's Name: Richard Gough - deceased master porter

Name: Sarah Arden
Birth Year: abt 1832
Age: 21
Marriage Date: 8 Feb 1853
Parish: Liverpool St Philip
Spouse's Name: Christopher Barner - gardener
Father's Name: Philip Arden - hoopmaker
Spouse Father's Name: William Barner - gardener

So the daughters of Philip the butcher and Jane, marry as daughters of Philip the hoopmaker.

Joseph from SECOND marriage to Mary:

EDIT: NOTE FATHER PHILIP'S OCCUPATION

Name: Joseph Arden -book keeper
Marriage Date: 10 Mar 1872
Parish: Liverpool St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Margaret Rice
Father's Name: Philip Arden - BUTCHER<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse Father's Name: Thomas Rice - labourer

So I think Astra and I were right, and that Philip Arden was first married to Jane Pearson Mainger, and secondly to widow Mary Manger.

So were Jane Pearson Mainger and Mary Manger sisters, in which case Philip and Mary's marriage would actually have been illegal....


EDIT, scrap that, we've already established Mary was nee Hughes, father Joseph Hughes.

The Philip who married Jane Pearson Mainger was a butcher, so I don't think 1841 was a mistranscription, it's just a case of whether he changed occupation.

The previous marriage record I posted just had Jane P Mainger, but apparently it's Pearson, which ties in with Astra's census 1851.

Name: Philip Arden
Marriage Date: 7 May 1826
Parish: Richmond St Anne
Spouse's Name: Jane Pearson Mainger

Robert would seem to be son of the butcher in 1841, and son of the hoopmaker in 1872

Marriage of daur Emma

Name: Emma Arden
Age: Minor
Marriage Date: 29 Jul 1866
Parish: Liverpool St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: James Williamson- painter
Father's Name: Philip Arden -hoopmaker
Spouse Father's Name: Samuel Williamson- warehouseman

Could this be Robert Arden from census 1841 with parents Philip and JANE.

On the image, his father Philip is described as a hoopmaker.

Name: Robert Arden - mariner
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 14 Apr 1872
Parish: Liverpool St Bride
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Wright - widow
Father's Name: Philip Arden - hoopmaker
Spouse Father's Name: John Neeves - deceased licensed victualler

I'm wondering if his occupation has been mistranscribed in 1841 as Butcher as he fits perfectly and there are deaths for Jane Arden in Liverpool in 1844 and 1845. It would mean that the baptisms of the children Ann and Hannah I posted above belonged to the correct Philip.

However there is also a Philip Arden living in Sand Bach near Congleton in 1801, also a butcher, who could also be the Philip baptised at Swettenham.

Census 1841


Address: Well Bank, Sandbach County: Cheshire

ARDEN, Philip M 40 1801 Cheshire
ARDEN, Mary F 40 1801 Cheshire
ARDEN, Fanny F 20 1821 Cheshire
ARDEN, Geo M 15 1826 Cheshire
ARDEN, Wm M 13 1828 Cheshire
ARDEN, Abs F 11 1830 Cheshire
ARDEN, Mary F ? (0 (10 MONTHS)) Cheshire
HEATHCOTE, Philip M 70 1771 Cheshire

There is a Philip Arden born out of county living in Liverpool in 1841, married to Jane.
However he has a totally different occupation, butcher, not hoopmaker.

Census 1841:

Address: St James Street, Liverpool County: Lancashire

ARDEN, Philip M 41 1800
ARDEN, Jane F 35 1806 Lancashire
ARDEN, Eliz F 11 1830 Lancashire
ARDEN, Sarah F 9 1832 Scotland
ARDEN, Robt M 8 1833 Lancashire


Marriage:

Day: 7
Month: May
Year: 1826
Groom Forenames: Philip
Groom Surname: Arden
Groom's Parish: Liverpool
Groom's Occupation: Butcher
Bride Forenames: Jane P.
Bride Surname: Mainger
Bride's Parish: Liverpool
Bride's Condition: Spinster
By Licence: Banns
Place: Liverpool
Description: St Anne Richmond
County: Lancashire
Country: England
Record source: Liverpool Marriages


Possible deaths for jane?

Deaths Sep 1844 ARDEN Jane Liverpool 20 357

Deaths Jun 1845 ARDEN Jane Liverpool 20 353

Parents of the Philip Arden baptised at Swettenham?

name: Philip Arden
event: Marriage
event date: 15 Dec 1796
event place: Swettenham, Cheshire, England
gender: Male
age:
marital status:
father:
mother:
spouse: Elizabeth Vawdrey
spouse's marital status:
spouse's father:
spouse's mother:
film number: 1751852
digital folder number: 4011894
image number: 355

Looking at the census records it looks as if Eleanor (although in 1851 it is clearly Ellen on the original but for some reason transcribed as Eleanor) may have been Mary's daughter before she married Philip.

Mary Manger married to James Manger in 1841 living in Mould Street Liverpool

MANGER, James M 30 1811 Scotland VIEW
>>MANGER, Mary F 30 1811 Foreign VIEW
MANGER, William M 3 1838 Lancashire VIEW
MANGER, Ellen F 1 1840 Lancashire VIEW

It notes her as foreign

It is in 1871 when she is married to Philip that she gives Gibralter as her place of birth in 1851 it is Cheshire and in 1861 although it says Gibralter on the original it has been mistranscribed as Gloucester.

ARDEN, Philip Head M 71 1800 Cheshire VIEW
>>ARDEN, Mary Wife F 61 1810 Gibraltar VIEW
ARDEN, Joseph Son M 18 1853 Lancashire VIEW
SMITH, James Lodger M 22 1849 Derbyshire VIEW
SMITH, Elizabeth Lodger F 20 1851 Yorkshire VIEW
SMITH, Alice M F 0 1871 Cumberland VIEW

Piece: 3793 Folio: 98 Page: 30 Registration District: West Derby Civil Parish: Toxteth Park Municipal Borough: Liverpool Address: Chesterfield Street Court, Toxteth Park, Liverpool County: Lancashire

Looking for Mary's son William in 1851 we find a combination of both families

William was registered as William Henry

Births Jun 1838 (>99%)
Manger William Henry Liverpool 20 418

1851. Hannah and Ann are Arden I think on the original image so are they Philip's children?

MANGER, Robert Perrson Head Married M 48 1803 Coach Builder
Liverpool, Lancashire VIEW
MANGER, Dorothy Wife Married F 50 1801
Cheshire VIEW
ARDER, Hannah Niece Unmarried F 22 1829
Liverpool, Lancashire VIEW
ARDER, Ann Niece Unmarried F 13 1838 Scholar
Liverpool, Lancashire VIEW
MANGER, William Henry Nephew Unmarried M 12 1839 Scholar
Liverpool, Lancashire VIEW

Piece: 2190 Folio: 202 Page: 6 Registration District: West Derby Civil Parish: Everton Municipal Borough: Liverpool Address: 9, Ellesmere Terrace Spencer Street, Everton, Liverpool County: Lancashire redefine current search

Their baptisms name their parents as Philip and Jane

parents: Philip Arden,? Jane
name: Hannah Arden
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 25 Sep 1828
baptism/christening place: St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
father's name: Philip Arden
mother's name: Jane
indexing project (batch) number: I02227-7
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 93877

parents: Philip Arden,? Jane
name: Ann Arden
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 06 Jul 1837
baptism/christening place: St. Peter, Liverpool, Lancaster, England
father's name: Philip Arden
mother's name: Jane
indexing project (batch) number: I02047-6
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 93881

Baptism? My geography's not too good, so not sure if it's near birthplaces as given in the census.

EDIT birthplace given as Congleton in census 1871, which is quite close to Swettenham, certainly within 5 miles. Place called Sandlow Green also very near by Swettenham, might be the 'Southham Green' of census 1861?

Forenames: Philip
Surname: Arden
Sex: Male
Christening Year: 1800
Christening Date: 12 Mar 1800
Date of Birth:
Age:
Location: Swettenham
Father's Forenames: Philip
Father's Surname: Arden
Mother's Forename: Elizabeth
Mother's Surname:
Parish:
City or Town: Swettenham
County: Cheshire
Record source: Diocese of Chester Bishop's Transcripts of Baptisms

Could Mary be a second wife ?


?
Name: Philip Arden -widower
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 29 Oct 1849
Parish: Liverpool St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Mary Manger -widow
Father's Name: Philip Arden
Spouse Father's Name: Joseph Hughes


Kent St. occupation of hoop maker

Sylvia,

You are quite right, I haven't been looking at this thread! Not all that dedicated to this but now that more records are available and it seems easier to search I have started again!

I am specifically looking for Philip Arden born c1800 Married someone called Mary and had children

Ellenor Arden 1841
Phillip Arden 1843
Emma Arden 1849
Joseph Arden 1854 (My direct ancestor)

I have traced him through to 1871 but am not able to find him and Mary anywhere in 1841. I would be interested if anyone has any birth or marriage records form him and Mary.

I would also be interested in any pointers that anyone has in finding where he was in 1841.

Thanks,

Christine

This message was posted in 2006.


It is very unlikely that Richard checks the thread.

I suggest that you would be better to send him a personal message (pm) ........ just click on his name and send him the message.


You are far more likely to get a response that way



sylvia

HI RICHARD

I HAVE A ALFRED ARDEN (C1878) WHO MARRIED LUCY EGGLESHAW, IN MY TREE, THEIR SON JOSEPH WAS BORN IN TOXTETH AROUND 1903. LUCYS FATHER WAS MY GG GRANDFATHER.

CHRIS

my g g g grandfather was born in cheshire ( wilmslow ) 1835 his son was 1874 macclesfield

I am looking for any Ardens in the Liverpool area particularly any related to Ardens born in the Toxteth area between 1875 and 1840. I also know that my Great Great Great Grandfather was born in Cheshire around 1800 and so would be interested in any links to him.