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No certificate s as yet..but think they will be coming soon as the family visited the library for updates. Fingers crossed we all get the right results. Watch this space.
Regards
Shirley :-)

If you need fmp checks..we have them free at work..subscription...and ancestry..so I not bought at home. I really do appreciate all the effort you and others go to on this site... :-)
Will keep you informed

Thanks for the offer Shirley - think I got most of it done, and it turned out the FiL's family originated in Hampshire - so "off-comers" so to speak.

I did look on Ancestry for any military records, but drew a blank, so don't think there is any help there unless there is something on FMP, but I don't have a sub for that site.

It's always a pleasure to try to help someone who appreciates it, so you're welcome, and I look forward to your certificate results - see if we got any of this right :-)

P.s. forgot to add..good luck with f.I.l tree...if they colne and you need anything looking up..I work in colne..any help I can give please don't hesitate to ask..Thanks so.much to you both <3

Like you say..I should keep an open mind..and Blackburn did have a big hospital back then..and even bigger now since they rebuilt and closed most of ours down
This is a sore point which may be influencing my thoughts ha ha
I've not heard of anyone going Blackburn but I trust your mother in law,s good memory. :-) and I still think he would have to be a Willis when he died..would he not..for official documents. And he was too old to have been in the war I presume? I will ask my friend if she could also get the death certificate for William which would help . He lived to a hood age anyway if this is him. I will definitely let you both know as soon as we get certificates. Like I said...you've both been brilliant with the things you have found...we do appreciate all your help..could not have done it without you. Thanks for all the extra Carroll info too...watch this space :-) :-D

I posted about a possible death for Sarah Jane Carroll on the previous page - died in Colne in 1950 and was of the right age... you need to look at free bmd and also Lancashire bmd as that site gives more details on the sub registration districts and middle names.

From freebmd:

Deaths Mar 1950 (>99%)

Carroll Sarah J 73 Nelson 10e 683 Scan available - click to view

From Lancashirebmd - the same death:

Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1950
SurnameForename(s)Ageub-DistrictRegisters AtReference

CARROLL Sarah Jane 73 Colne Preston COL/17/2

Ancestry does not have a probate record for either of them though.

Like you say, he may have been visiting relatives in Blackburn when he died. But Blackburn was the main hospital in the area much bigger than Burnley/Marsden etc so don't rule it out completely, if he had cancer for instance he could have been transferred to the main area hospital which I believe from my MiL was always Blackburn (She was born (1931) and raised in Colne and now lives in Nelson - although she lived in Summerseat, Ramsbottom for a few years recently).

However to get to my point, MiL's grandfather's death was registered in Blackburn East in the late 1940s and after asking her why, it turns out he died at Blackburn hospital (she remembers him), although he had lived all his life in Barrowford (right near Nelson as I assume you know the area). He ended up in Blackburn hospital before his death - the nearest hospital would not have been Blackburn so she has no idea why he was there, although she remembers going with her mother to visit him.

All I'm trying to say is keep an open mind - researching my in-laws to present my 84 year old MiL with a Family Tree has been really interesting! Then she asked me for FiL's tree!!!!!!!!!! Don't you just love them old folks
;-)

Forgot to add, although my MiL is 84 and has arthritis she is as sharp as a button up top, doesn't forget anything. She is amazing with her local knowledge!

Thanks flip..and Sylvia...we have found out such a lot..my friend will be so excited. I know what you mean about Williams death. I live in burnley but the accident and emergency moved to Blackburn recently which is why they travel there. In the forties it just wouldn't happen. We had Victoria hospital, Marsden hospital and burnley General, everything all on our doorstep. Maybe they separated and he moved to Blackburn..or was staying with a relative...maybe if Sarah had died already....I guess it would also be useful to get that death certificate to see where he was living and who notified the death?
I can't remember now when we found a possible death for Sarah. Will check. :-)
It's 1950...so she didn't die before this William...strange..so guess there is a chance they were living apart
Thankyou again.

Found a bit more on the Carroll family. Son James was actually registered in Keighley in 1867, but born Skipton according to his military record. He enlisted in Burnley 20/2/1889, but deserted 24/5/1889 - he named his nok as Bryan/Bridget (parents) older brother Patrick and younger sister Mary Ann. His address was 9 New Market Street, Skipton which is the same as 1891 census for the family (if you go to the previous image).

Older brother Patrick did appear on a later census with the family, he was born in Ireland 16/3/1866. I think their parents were born in Sligo (1881 census) but married in Ballina, Mayo in 18/6/1865 - her maiden name Breslane or Brislane. Their fathers were recorded as James Carroll and Anthony Breslane. So they obviously came to England between the births of Patrick and James.

Of the Ellen Carroll/Wm Willis children, 4 had died by 1911, but I don't thing they were born in Lancashire as they are not showing on Lancsbmd. However following the census, James (Q1/1911) died the following quarter in Colne, Margaret (1912) died in 1916, Stephen William I think married Edith Brady Holmes in 1935 and died in 1998. I haven't found anything on John (1917) with any degree of certainty.

And that is about all of my notes from yesterday. Look forward to an update when you have some certificates!

I found a possible death yesterday - was having a look round to make sure that William Willis didn't go off to Connetecut where his younger brother ended up (along with step-sister, and most of her in-laws).

According to LancashireBMD the full name was William James and the sub district is Blackburn East:

Deaths Mar 1946 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Willis William J 74 Blackburn 8e448

I know its the wrong area, but he could have died at Blackburn hospital - even now my relatives in Nelson/Colne get referred there from time to time. The hospital is east of Blackburn.

I did wonder if the only Willis birth (Clara) was registered by her father but the mother registered all the others.

Hi


sorry, we went away for a few days, and am just back.

I wondered how this would turn out ........................... like Flip, I thought the Carroll and Wright names were linked to Sarah Jane.

I think your friend will probably find that they never bothered to get married, but maybe didn't remember what name they were using from census to census :-)

Thanks for that. Yes, did a lot of tracking of Ellen Willis last night. Even found her baptism in I think 1889...at st Thomas,s Blackburn...it's correct Ellen cos it says Ellen Willis but married name counsell. Dad joshua. Joshua married Rachel hargreaves in 1840 in Rochdale .
Think you must be right both of you about William and Sarah not marrying..it's just strange how the kids have all gone on to be Carroll's. Maybe one was Catholic and one protestant. Have still not been able to find Williams death. And like you say..strange how some of kids had mmn as Preston. Have asked the lady whose family it is to get a couple of birth certificate s as you advised, but she will be over the moon to have discovered the truth to the mystery..Thanks to you both..well done . Definitely could not have done it without you, appreciate the time you have both taken.
Will post on here if I discover anything else once get the certificate s.
Thankyou :-)

Thanks for that. Yes, did a lot of tracking of Ellen Willis last night. Even found her baptism in I think 1889...at st Thomas,s Blackburn...it's correct Ellen cos it says Ellen Willis but married name counsell. Dad joshua. Joshua married Rachel hargreaves in 1840 in Rochdale .
Think you must be right both of you about William and Sarah not marrying..it's just strange how the kids have all gone on to be Carroll's. Maybe one was Catholic and one protestant. Have still not been able to find Williams death. And like you say..strange how some of kids had mmn as Preston. Have asked the lady whose family it is to get a couple of birth certificate s as you advised, but she will be over the moon to have discovered the truth to the mystery..Thanks to you both..well done . Definitely could not have done it without you, appreciate the time you have both taken.
Will post on here if I discover anything else once get the certificate s.
Thankyou :-)

I don't know but I can't see this William on 1901 other that the one we've found. I don't think there is confusion with the names Counsell/Carroll - I think Sarah's name was Carroll and it has been used on some of the births as they don't appear to have ever married.

Maybe she completed the 1911 census in her name rather than his? Though where mmn of Preston comes into it on some birth entries is beyond me.

No idea where the stepsister fits in, she was born Q4/1871 Blackburn, mmn was Gibson - maybe adopted daughter rather than step-daughter? When she married William Whewell in 1897 she did not name a father. In 1901 they have a 1 year old son - named Willis Whewell!! They emigrated in 1902 and ended up in Connetticut.

Maybe a couple of the birth certificates may shed some light on why some children were registered as Willis and some as Carroll.

You may be onto something with William, born Q1/1871. Mother Ellen Willis (16) and Wm Jame (as it's transcribed) 3wks are in the Rossendale workhouse, along with Ellen's father Joshua (b Rochdale). Joshua is also in the workhouse in 1881, but in 1861 they were living in Rossendale - Joshua a widow.

Do you have her marriage from Lan-opc?

Marriage: 18 Oct 1873 St Thomas, Blackburn, Lancashire, England
Thomas Counsell - 24, Spinner, Bachelor, 99 Pendle St East
Ellen Willis - (X), 21, Domestic Servant, Spinster, 38 Pendle St
Groom's Father: James Counsell, Millwright
Bride's Father: Joshua Willis, Carter
Witness: William Henry Mayor; Mary Mayor
Married by Banns by: Wm.Thomason Curate
Register: Marriages 1866 - 1874, Page 238, Entry 476
Source: LDS Film 1470818

They are easy to find 1881-1911 she was born Bacup. They have William James with them as stepson up until 1891 - there is also a stepdaughter but I don't know how she fits in.

Ellen Counsell
Age:35
Estimated birth year:abt 1856
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:Thomas Counsell
Gender:Female
Where born:Bacup, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Blackburn
Ecclesiastical parish:St Thomas
Town:Blackburn
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
Education:
Employment status:
View image
Registration district:Blackburn
Sub-registration district:Blackburn Northern
ED, institution, or vessel:17
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece:3397
Folio:53
Page Number:20
Household Members:NameAge

Thomas Counsell 42
Ellen Counsell 35
William J Willis 20 <<stepson
Elizabeth A Gibson 19 <<stepdaughter
Margaret Counsell 17
Ann Counsell 15
James Counsell 13
Elizabeth Counsell 11
Thomas Counsell 6
Ellen Counsell 1
Frederick Mayon 15 <<nephew

In 1901/11 they also have a granddaughter living with them - Annie Mason, who was 1 month old on 1901 census (Ann' Counsell's daughter).

Think I found William Willis,s mum on the 1881 census...Ellen and she is living with her husband Thomas counsell so just wondering if there is where confusion started if they confused Carroll with counsell? Slim chance I know..

I did find a William Willis being born in Rossendale in 1871 and that could be him, maybe being born out of wedlock to this Ellen Willis maybe? :-S

Hi to you again
I think you are right, probably need to get Clara,s birth certificate to solve the problem..Will have s chat with the lady in question tomorrow and see what she says. Thanks for your hard work..without you two would never have discovered the Willis connection. :-)

I think what I'm getting at (and I think Sylvia is too) is both surnames Carroll & Willis seem to be connected to Sarah Jane, but not William.

Were they dodging the authorities for some reason, who knows? But I've no idea where the Preston name comes from.............

You're not on your own Shirley, think I'm loosing it too!. There just isn't a birth in Skipton for either Sarah Jane Carroll or Preston, but is one for Willis. There isn't a birth for daughter Sarah Jane Willis, but there is for Carroll.

It's highly likely the 1901 census (for Willis) and 1911 for Carroll are the same family - birth places are too similar, and Summerseat is definitely in Ramsbottom - MiL used to live there.

There is no birth for William Willis or Carroll registered in the right area of Bury which would cover this district, but his age varies between 1869 and 1873 on the two census records.

Maybe an earlier birth certificate for Sarah Jane Carroll or Clara Willis would prove more useful than Bernard's - as we know his mmn is Preston from Lancashire bmd and he is the only one born in Lancashire in the right time frame.

May be losing it..but those 1901 skipton Carroll's..there is no William..did you mean that Sarah had the name Carroll as her maiden nAME,,,? Think I've lost it somewhere. Confused :-( well done for finding the possible Willis connection. It is a weird one. I can't understand the Preston part either. :-( will get back to you if I find any more info. :-)

I can't find a death for Sarah Jane Willis, born 1878 Skipton - nor can I find her on 1881/91 census? The first sighting of someone of this name is the 1901 census with William.