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On his marriage certificate he gives his address as Walker, Newcastle. I have been able to see that he did live there when the first of his children were born. I have never see a Jarrow connection, but it could be possible that his medal was sent to his parents home. Will follow this up.

so John what do you think of the person Mavis found, and getting a certificate or two?

the birth certificate is the only way to get more information about that Charles and figure out how he might be related to the Johnson couple.

Sorry if I was not clear. I know that Charles Johnson jnr. was alive in 1946 as I have the photograph of him taking his daughter to her wedding that year. Also that Charles Johnson snr is not deceased according to his sons marriage certificate. I agree that what is on a certificate might not be correct. According to the living relative Charles jnr was some years older than my aunt, although there was only two years between them on the certificate.

It would be ideal if some one knows Charles Johnson's birthday - then if the
Charles Cecil Stevenson's birth cert has the same date we have the right man'

Mavis

John is a little confusing when he says:

'His father was not deceased at the time of his marriage. I know that he was still alive in 1946.'

because I think it was Charles himself who was still alive in 1946, that is who the photograph is of (not of Charles's father), unless I am even more confused than I thought. :-)

father Isaac would have been over 90 in 1946 ... any father of someone born in 1890 would have been at least pushing 80 ...

but yes there is no certainty that the statement that the father was alive at the time of the 1918 marriage was correct ... especially since it seems pretty sure that the father in question was fictitious!

I do think that Mavis has absolutely nailed this Charles Johnson, and now the best thing would be to get the Charles Cecil Stevenson birth certificate ... and I still think that 1948 Charles Johnson death certificate.


ps he came close!

Deaths Mar 1938
JOHNSON Isaac 82 S. Shields 10a 823

John

How do you know his father was still alive at the time of the marriage?

If you are basing that solely on the fact that the certificate does not say so ........... then that is a false assumption!


We have all come across cases where a certificate says "deceased" but the father is well and truly alive. OR where the word "deceased is not there, so we assume that means he is alive .......... but he is in fact dead.


It all really depends on how the church minister asked the question, and how it was answered.

eg,

What is your father's name?

would elicit often only the name .................... a few people might add as an aside, "but he's dead"

What is your father's name, and is he still alive?

would result in a 2-fold response ................... which still might not be true!

Many thanks to all of you who have replied, I am very grateful. I will continue to check through the information that you have given.

One or two points that I can answer. His father was not deceased at the time of his marriage. I know that he was still alive in 1946. At various times he called himself a machinist and other times a fitter. Judging by the photograph I have he was not tall, but difficult to gauge his height.

This man's occupation is "machinist"

Name: Charles Johnson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Age at Enlistment: 22
Birth Parish: Chriss Church
Birth County: Durham
Document Year: 1913
Regimental Number: 689
Number of images: 12


He enlisted in 1913 and the address on his records is 20 Grange Road West. Jarrow on Tyne

His British Victory medal was sent to the above address on 27 October 1921.

Army records

Charles Johnson Teritorial force 689 1891 Durham Military 1913 - 22y
5 foot 4 inches

then

: Charles Johnson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Age at Enlistment: 26
Residence: 20 Green Rd West, Garrow
Document Year: 1917
Regimental Number: 94264
Regiment Name RFA


death ??????
JOHNSON, CharlesRegistration district: [?] Northumberland Central County: NorthumberlandYear of registration: 1953 Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at death:62 y Volume no: 1B Page no: 284

Mavis

Actually in 1891 Charles is

Name: Chas Stevenson
Age: 2/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
> Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow

He came to visit and he stayed :-)

but they are indeed together in 1881

Name: Margaret Johnson
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Isaac Johnson
Gender: Female
Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow

so Charles must have been someone else's child ...

Excellent :-D

He might have known his father was a 'Charles' and he was named for him, or he might have just made him up out of whole cloth. Funny that since he took his stepfather's surname he didn't name him when he married.

No marriage for Margaret and Isaac that I can see?
but ... Margaret says married 32 years in 1911! which is about 1879.
so ... it could be September quarter 1878 Sunderland, Isaac Johnson and Margaret Mitchell are two names in the list.

but then she would not have had a child by another name in 1891.

1891 Census

Name: Isaac Johnson
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margt Johnson
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Jarrow
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Registration District: South Shields
Sub-registration District: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4165
Folio: 117
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Johnson 36
Margt Johnson 29
William Johnson 50
Mary Jane Potts 18
Chas Stevenson 2/12


he is Charles Stevenson 2 mths old --- he became Charles Johnson if Illigit then did'nt know father

Birth ??? Charles Cecil Stevenson Newcastle T - Mar Q - 1891 - 10b 54.



Mavis

1911 Census

Name: Isaac Johnson
Age in 1911: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Newcastle, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Jarrow
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: 20 Grange Rd West Jarrow On Tyne
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Machinist
Registration District: South Shields
Registration District Number: 556
Sub-registration District: Jarrow
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 30368
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Johnson 57
Margaret Johnson 47
Charles Johnson 20 Machinist

adding more shortly Charles not their son


1901 Census

JOHNSON, Isaac Head Married M 46 1855 Engine Works Machine Minder
Newcastle, Northumberland VIEW
JOHNSON, Margaret Wife Married F 40 1861
Sunderland, Durham VIEW
JOHNSON, Charles Son M 10 1891
Jarrow, Durham VIEW
BROUGH, Charles Nephew Single M 21 1880 Insurance Agent
Jarrow, Durham VIEW Piece: 4741 Folio: 15 Page: 21 Registration District: South Shields Civil Parish: Jarrow Municipal Borough: Address: 45, Charles Street, Jarrow County: Durham

Mavis

It could be a slow job, but have you tried looking through the WWI military records?

You may be able to match the soldier's signature, on the front page, with his signature on the marriage certificate.

If found, it could give you his age and place of birth.

Well December 1918, I would think he had been demobbed !

That occupation does match the 1881 boy's father, but he does seem to have been the Charles Henry ... not that he could not have just dropped the middle name.

But when you say it seems to follow his father's occupation is that what you mean? No occupation is given on the certificate for the father? does it say deceased? Please, we are blind here unless you tell us everything on the certificate. :-)

The 1921 census is going to reveal many secrets, or wish it had !

I think if it were me and I really wanted to know I would get that 1948 death certificate just to find out whether it was him.

His occupation was given as machinist, which seems to follow his father's occupation. No middle name is given. The Irish connection comes from a living relative. I am not sure just how reliable that is as she is a grand daughter and doesn't really seem to have known him. On the marriage certificate he says that he came from Newcastle and I wonder what he was doing down south to have met my aunt.

I think I was mistaken there because I think he was the Charles Henry. If we assume your Charles had no middle name ... and assumptions are never completely wise ... he is more likely the one born 1877. If and it is a big if he was born in Newcastle.

Can you give us the other information from the marriage certificate, especially his and his father's occupation please?

There is one in the censuses born in Ireland, but he was a solicitor's clerk in Northamptonshire so I think probably not the one. Of course your Charles could have come to England after the 1911 census, if he was from Ireland, maybe he stayed after the war ...

JoonieCloonie: You have been going along the lines that I have. Charles Johnson looks 'old' in the photo I have, but it was just after WWII and things were not that glossy then. My aunts grand daughter was the informant of her death, but from what I suspect, though cannot prove, is that they might well have been apart and he could have well died. I had come across the Norway connection and did wonder, but you may have unlocked the puzzle.

There is certainly a Charles who fits the bill in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne reg dist, Northumberland in 1881

Charles Johnson 27 factory machineman - born Norway!
Mary J. Johnson 31
John C. Johnson 5
Mary Johnson 4
Charles Johnson 3 born in Newcastle
Thomas Johnson 1
George Hunt 26 wife's brother
Joseph Hunt 16 "
Johan Carlson 53 boarder, born Sweden

in 1891 the family is in Gateshead

birth reg December quarter 1877 in Newcastle upon Tyne probably

If that 1948 death certificate seems likely ... this is probably the person whose death that was.

oh rats, edit, in 1901 that Charles is Charles H whose birth was registered in June quarter 1878 in Newcastle ... back to the drawing board but this just means that the Charles born in 1877 is still at large.