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Really just about to give up having sought information for 4 years. My aunt Beatrice French married a Charles Johnson in Watford, December 1918. They had five children and lived in Newcastle upon Tyne. It seems that the information on the marriage certificate does not tally with what a living relative has told me. According to the certificate he was born c1890 but the relative believes him to be older. Seemingly there was degree of ill-feeling towards him, and no-one can even say when or where he died, although they think he could have been born in Ireland.

Any help would be received with thanks.

Do you have any idea of when Beatrice died and was Charles the informant

With such a common name and no middle name it will be like looking for a needle in a haystack

Was her death in 1957 ?

Have you looked for him with family on the 1901/11 census using his fathers details off the marriage cert

Roy

Glitterbaby: She died in 1987 not 57.

Porkie_Pie: He gives his fathers name as Charles Johnson which does not help. I have been able to trace his children and what happen to them, how they moved around Newcastle and area, even have a photo of him at one daughter's wedding, Seems as if he was a bit of a bad egg according to living relatives, but they do not know when he died and where.

What does the marriage certificate say his occupation was? and his father's?
Probably the witnesses are from the bride's side?
Any info like that that you have, but nobody else does, could help! :-)

Does his age in the photograph seem to tally with his stated age in 1918? (or was he just 'old' ...) Do you know about when it was taken, for an idea of when he was still 'in the picture' so to speak?

and as GlitterBaby says was he the informant on Beatrice's death certificate? if you know he was not around by 1987 then probably not. Beatrice was quite a good age when she died then, born in 1892, so 26ish when she married and 95 when she died. Almost certainly Charles would not have lived that long.

Sometimes a father with the same name on a marriage certificate did mean a made-up father ... could be the person didn't know their father's name, or the person was concealing their real identity and maybe even their real name ... maybe if they were already married, or had deserted from the military, are common reasons.

Knowing his occupation could really help find him in 1911 as he would already have been 20 by then at least and working.

Have you checked out the Charles Johnson born about 1878 who died in 1948 in Newcastle upon Tyne where Beatrice died? if your Charles's death certificate was signed by Beatrice that could help considerably.

There is certainly a Charles who fits the bill in Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne reg dist, Northumberland in 1881

Charles Johnson 27 factory machineman - born Norway!
Mary J. Johnson 31
John C. Johnson 5
Mary Johnson 4
Charles Johnson 3 born in Newcastle
Thomas Johnson 1
George Hunt 26 wife's brother
Joseph Hunt 16 "
Johan Carlson 53 boarder, born Sweden

in 1891 the family is in Gateshead

birth reg December quarter 1877 in Newcastle upon Tyne probably

If that 1948 death certificate seems likely ... this is probably the person whose death that was.

oh rats, edit, in 1901 that Charles is Charles H whose birth was registered in June quarter 1878 in Newcastle ... back to the drawing board but this just means that the Charles born in 1877 is still at large.

JoonieCloonie: You have been going along the lines that I have. Charles Johnson looks 'old' in the photo I have, but it was just after WWII and things were not that glossy then. My aunts grand daughter was the informant of her death, but from what I suspect, though cannot prove, is that they might well have been apart and he could have well died. I had come across the Norway connection and did wonder, but you may have unlocked the puzzle.

I think I was mistaken there because I think he was the Charles Henry. If we assume your Charles had no middle name ... and assumptions are never completely wise ... he is more likely the one born 1877. If and it is a big if he was born in Newcastle.

Can you give us the other information from the marriage certificate, especially his and his father's occupation please?

There is one in the censuses born in Ireland, but he was a solicitor's clerk in Northamptonshire so I think probably not the one. Of course your Charles could have come to England after the 1911 census, if he was from Ireland, maybe he stayed after the war ...

His occupation was given as machinist, which seems to follow his father's occupation. No middle name is given. The Irish connection comes from a living relative. I am not sure just how reliable that is as she is a grand daughter and doesn't really seem to have known him. On the marriage certificate he says that he came from Newcastle and I wonder what he was doing down south to have met my aunt.

Well December 1918, I would think he had been demobbed !

That occupation does match the 1881 boy's father, but he does seem to have been the Charles Henry ... not that he could not have just dropped the middle name.

But when you say it seems to follow his father's occupation is that what you mean? No occupation is given on the certificate for the father? does it say deceased? Please, we are blind here unless you tell us everything on the certificate. :-)

The 1921 census is going to reveal many secrets, or wish it had !

I think if it were me and I really wanted to know I would get that 1948 death certificate just to find out whether it was him.

It could be a slow job, but have you tried looking through the WWI military records?

You may be able to match the soldier's signature, on the front page, with his signature on the marriage certificate.

If found, it could give you his age and place of birth.

1911 Census

Name: Isaac Johnson
Age in 1911: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Newcastle, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Jarrow
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address: 20 Grange Rd West Jarrow On Tyne
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Machinist
Registration District: South Shields
Registration District Number: 556
Sub-registration District: Jarrow
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 30368
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Johnson 57
Margaret Johnson 47
Charles Johnson 20 Machinist

adding more shortly Charles not their son


1901 Census

JOHNSON, Isaac Head Married M 46 1855 Engine Works Machine Minder
Newcastle, Northumberland VIEW
JOHNSON, Margaret Wife Married F 40 1861
Sunderland, Durham VIEW
JOHNSON, Charles Son M 10 1891
Jarrow, Durham VIEW
BROUGH, Charles Nephew Single M 21 1880 Insurance Agent
Jarrow, Durham VIEW Piece: 4741 Folio: 15 Page: 21 Registration District: South Shields Civil Parish: Jarrow Municipal Borough: Address: 45, Charles Street, Jarrow County: Durham

Mavis

1891 Census

Name: Isaac Johnson
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Margt Johnson
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Town: Jarrow
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Registration District: South Shields
Sub-registration District: South Shields
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4165
Folio: 117
Page Number: 4
Household Members:
Name Age
Isaac Johnson 36
Margt Johnson 29
William Johnson 50
Mary Jane Potts 18
Chas Stevenson 2/12


he is Charles Stevenson 2 mths old --- he became Charles Johnson if Illigit then did'nt know father

Birth ??? Charles Cecil Stevenson Newcastle T - Mar Q - 1891 - 10b 54.



Mavis

Excellent :-D

He might have known his father was a 'Charles' and he was named for him, or he might have just made him up out of whole cloth. Funny that since he took his stepfather's surname he didn't name him when he married.

No marriage for Margaret and Isaac that I can see?
but ... Margaret says married 32 years in 1911! which is about 1879.
so ... it could be September quarter 1878 Sunderland, Isaac Johnson and Margaret Mitchell are two names in the list.

but then she would not have had a child by another name in 1891.

but they are indeed together in 1881

Name: Margaret Johnson
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Isaac Johnson
Gender: Female
Where born: Sunderland, Durham, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow

so Charles must have been someone else's child ...

Actually in 1891 Charles is

Name: Chas Stevenson
Age: 2/12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
> Relation: Visitor
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England
Civil Parish: Hedworth Monkton and Jarrow

He came to visit and he stayed :-)

Army records

Charles Johnson Teritorial force 689 1891 Durham Military 1913 - 22y
5 foot 4 inches

then

: Charles Johnson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Age at Enlistment: 26
Residence: 20 Green Rd West, Garrow
Document Year: 1917
Regimental Number: 94264
Regiment Name RFA


death ??????
JOHNSON, CharlesRegistration district: [?] Northumberland Central County: NorthumberlandYear of registration: 1953 Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar Age at death:62 y Volume no: 1B Page no: 284

Mavis

This man's occupation is "machinist"

Name: Charles Johnson
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Age at Enlistment: 22
Birth Parish: Chriss Church
Birth County: Durham
Document Year: 1913
Regimental Number: 689
Number of images: 12


He enlisted in 1913 and the address on his records is 20 Grange Road West. Jarrow on Tyne

His British Victory medal was sent to the above address on 27 October 1921.

Many thanks to all of you who have replied, I am very grateful. I will continue to check through the information that you have given.

One or two points that I can answer. His father was not deceased at the time of his marriage. I know that he was still alive in 1946. At various times he called himself a machinist and other times a fitter. Judging by the photograph I have he was not tall, but difficult to gauge his height.