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And this isn't her?

1891 England Census
Name: Esther Hale
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 3 Euston Grove
Occupation: General Servant
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
Piece: 127
Folio: 181
Page Number: 44
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Randall 26
Esther Hale 16
Charles Kneebone 56
Sarah J Kneebone 50
John McCoy 36

It's quite possible that Esther Gertrude was farmed out to relatives after the death of her mother and was recorded under their surname.

Hi
The odd thing is that his daughter Esther Gertrude Hales born 26/12/1874 St Pancras seems to be missing on the 1881 and 1891 census.She next appears when she married Herbert Perryman in 1897.
There is an Esther Hales born 13/04/1873 in St Pancras but she was the daughter of John William Hales and Elizabeth Hughes.
Wendy

I was always sus about Thomas W as he'd never used the W in anything else.

There is this, Births Dec 1851 HALES Thomas S Pancras 1 277, but I cant find him in 1861.

Ozi

Sorry - but I've found Thomas William Hales on census and I think it's a different chap :-(

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(some Hales Burials on above link)

Chris :)

So would we. He obviously thinks he was born in Hammersmith although there's no sign of him there.

In fact there are no Hales transcribed for Hammersmith in 1841, 1851, 1861, and no Thomas Hales in the Kensington district. Hammersmith was in the Kensington registration district at the time.

There was a Thomas Hales born in 1844 in Kensington. If the death that was found is correct he had a middle name W. There is this Births Jun 1848 HALES Thomas William St Pancras 1 318. Perhaps he lived in Hamersmith for a while as a small boy, and thought he was born there.

Then there is the other possibility that his father died when he was very young and his mother remarried and he's on the census under that name.

Ozi

Hello All
I really must apologise to you all.After posting my message we had a domestic crisis
and I couldn't make it back to the computer.
Thank you for your help.I need to find Thomas with a parent in 1861/1871.His father Thomas being a mason is the only clue I have.
Regards
Wendy

Could be Thomas in 1911:

1911 census transcription details for: St Pancras Infirmary Poor Law

National Archive Reference: RG14PN775 RD9 SD4 ED30 SN9999
Reg. District: St Pancras
Sub District: North St Pancras
Parish: St Pancras
Enum. District: 30

Address: Dartmouth Park Hill Highgate N

HALES, Thomas Widower M 62 1849 Laborer London Hammersmith

??? Right ages

Deaths Dec 1907 Hales Susan 65 Pancras 1b 45
Deaths Dec 1911 Hales Thomas W 61 Pancras 1b 89

Aha! Then we're on the right track.

You wonder right Ozi!!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Thomas Hales - widower, a labourer
Age: Full Age
Spouse Name: Susan Ellis, widow
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 8 Sep 1884
Parish: St Pancras Old St Pancras
Borough: Camden
Register Type: Parish Register

Witnesses: P Galton and L W Heine ??

Both lived Old St Pancras. For both fathers there are no names just "Dead"

I wonder???


Marriages Sep 1884
BUSBY Thirza Pancras 1b 180
Ellis Susan Pancras 1b 180
HALES Thomas Pancras 1b 180
Hunt John Charles Pancras 1b 180


1891 England Census
Name: Thomas Hales
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Susan Hales
Gender: Male
Where born: Hammersmith, London, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 12 Gee St
Occupation: General Labourer
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Somers Town
Piece: 128
Folio: 174
Page Number: 8
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Hales 40
Susan Hales 47
Walter T Ellis 9 - Boarder
Fred L A Schneidt 69 [more likely Fred'k] - Lodger; Band Sawyer & ______ Cutter; born Germany

This is Thomas in 1901 at the same address as on Esther Gertrude's marriage:

HALES, Thomas Head Married M 50 1851 General Labourer Hammersmith, London
HALES, Susan Wife Married F 58 1843 Paddington, London
ELLIS, Walter Step Son Single M 19 1882 Card Board Maker Pancras, London

Piece: 146 Folio: 91 Page: 84
Registration District: St Pancras
Civil Parish: St Pancras

Address: 12, Gee Street, St Pancras County: London

?????

1861 England Census
Name: Mary Ann Collop
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Peter Collop
Mother's name: Sarah Collop
Gender: Female
Where born: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address: 45 Augustus St
Occupation:
Registration district: Pancras
Sub-registration district: Regents Park
Piece: 97
Folio: 73
Page Number: 42
Household Members: Name Age
Peter Collop 43 - Warehouseman; born Chigwell, Essex.
Sarah Collop 37 - born Abbots Langley, Herts.
Esther Collop 9
Mary Ann Collop 8
William Collop 6
Charles Collop 4
Henry Collop 4 Months



????
Deaths Dec 1877
HALES Mary Ann 25 Pancras 1b 66
HALES Thomas Henry 1 Pancras 1b 65

I looked at those two to.

I have been looking for a Thomas Hales a mason but hav'nt found one yet.

????

name: Thomas Hales
age: 30
gender: Male
birth year: 1851
birthplace: Kensington, Middlesex, England
relationship to head of household: Lodger
marital condition: Single
profession/occupation: Bricklayers Laborer
address: 8 Stanmore Pl
census place: St Pancras, Middlesex, England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1341038
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 176 / 82
page number: 40
Household Gender Age Birthplace
head Joseph Duncan M 70 St Pancras, Middlesex, England
wife Ann Duncan F 69 St Andrews, Middlesex, England
lodger John Pyne M 19 Islington, Middlesex, England
lodger Thomas Hales M 30 Kensington, Middlesex, England

This might fit.
1851 England Census about Thomas Hales
Name: Thomas Hales
Age: 2 Mo
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas G Hales
Mother's name: Mary Ann Hales
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Spitalfields, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Philip
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 47
Piece: 1542
Folio: 502
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas G Hales 24
Mary Ann Hales 22
Samuel Hales 2
Thomas Hales 2 Mo

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1542; Folio: 502; Page: 10; GSU roll: 174772.

Jim

A Thomas Hales was a witness at the wedding of Herbert and Esther and a Janet Perryman.

The daughter stayed around...........

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Esther Gertrude Hales
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Age: 22
Spouse Name: Herbert Perryman
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 9 May 1897
Parish: Somers Town St Mary the Virgin
Borough: Camden
Father Name: Thomas Hales
Spouse Father Name: Charles Perryman
Register Type: Parish Register