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Sorry, you're last post just appeared BatmansDaughter.
I know nothing of Charles' siblng as yet and cant find.
Will check out the witness' for charles marriage to Alice Emily Marshall

Am beginning to to think that Charles Wilson (b 1872) was the product of a relationship between Johanna(Joan) Brown and Charles Wilson snr. Cant find any marriage between the two of the, so prob didnt marry. Could Joan have registered Charles' birth and stated her name as Wilson to save embarrassment of registering an illigitimate child?
Joan on the 1871 census working as a live-in servant in St George Hanover Square is stated as unmarried, therefor it doesnt run true with the 1911 census stating that she was married in 1867/8. It also says she had 2 children. have been trying to find the sibling of Charles, but not yet found him/her.
Charles Wilson snr is stated as being married for 37years in 1911 and having 1 child still living, have tried looking for a marriage for him to Joan around 1874 but nothing still. He may well have married someone else, but so hard to find when he is a live-in butler.
Have also tried to find links between the Shorten family(William shorten and Mary Ann, nee Nash) and both parents of Charles and the only link is that William was a butler.

Any other ideas from you more experience genealogists would be muchly appreciated
Damian

HI Damian,

You say "Charles had a sibling", what do you know about this sibling? Anything on this child just may help???

EDIT>>>>>>> 1911 census shows 2 children born and living for Joan, silly me!!!

When Charles Junior married, who were the witnesses???

thanks for all the help and pointers. will check all of these possibilities out and hopefully come to a conclusion.

thanks again :-)

Sorry, Damian, but you don't 'know' that there was a marriage just because the woman stated in 1911 that she had been married for X number of years.

This looks like Charles Wilson senior with his family. Haven't been able to find a marriage for him though.

Name: Charles Wilson
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Wilson
Mother's Name: Ann Wilson
Gender: Male
Where born: Southill, Bedfordshire, England

Civil parish: Southill
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: Bedfordshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:
View image


Registration district: Biggleswade
Sub-registration district: Biggleswade
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Neighbors: View others on page

Household schedule number: 78
Piece: 998
Folio: 36
Page Number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
William Wilson
60
Ann Wilson
56
Charles Wilson
14
Elizabeth Wilson
8

I don't think that many married servants, even ones as exalted as the Butler, would have been allowed to have their family living with them ................ except possibly in the case of Butler and Housekeeper or Cook.



The servant would have had to sleep in the house where he worked, and possibly have 1 day and/or night a week when he cold go home.



so it might not be surprising that you cannot find them together.




One thing I do note though, is that she says she ahd been married 43 years on the 1911

HE says he has been married 37 years on the 1911 ..............


and she also said she was a widow in 1911 .......... which of course could be true or a complete lie!




sylvia

1891 England Census about Charles Willson
Name: Charles Willson
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Gender: Male
Where born: Southill, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: West Firle
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: West Firle
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: Butler in charge

Condition as to marriage: married

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Lewes
Sub-registration district: West Firle
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 799
Folio: 54
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry George
Charles Willson 44
Ann Merideth 20
Fanny Hobden 22
Elizabeth Gladman 23
Clare Townsend 25

1911 England Census about Charles Wilson
Name: Charles Wilson
Age in 1911: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Lodger
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Southill, Bedford, England
Civil parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 59 Redcliffe Rd, S Kensington S W
Marital Status: Married
Years Married: 37
Estimated Marriage Year: 1874
Occupation: BUTLER
Registration district: Kensington
Registration District Number: 2
Sub-registration district: Kensington South
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Piece: 125

1 Child born and 1 child still living!!

1901 England Census about Charles Wilson
Name: Charles Wilson
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Gender: Male
Where born: Southill, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: West Firle
Ecclesiastical parish: West Firle St Peter
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation: BUTLER

Condition as to marriage: MARRIED

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Lewes
Sub-registration district: Lewes
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 916
Folio: 40
Page Number: 1

And in SUSSEX!!!!

1881 England Census about Charles Wilson
Name: Charles Wilson
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Fonthill, Bedfordshire, England >> Image states SOUTHILL
Civil parish: Tincleton
County/Island: Dorset
Country: England
Street Address: Clyffe House
Condition as to marriage: Married <<<<<
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Butler Domestic Servant <<<<<
Registration district: Dorchester
Sub-registration district: Puddletown
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2112
Folio: 79
Page Number: 6

Someone on An*y has a tree and it shows Charles Jnr with this family in 1881 and 1891;

1861 England Census about Mary Ann Shorten
Name: Mary Ann Shorten
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William Shorten
Gender: Female
Where born: Storrington, Sussex, England
Civil parish: Chelsea St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea North West
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 229
Piece: 33
Folio: 129
Page Number: 37
Household Members:
Name Age
William Shorten 42 >>>>>>>>>> Butler
Mary Ann Shorten 42
William Shorten 2


1881 England Census about Mary A. Shorten
Name: Mary A. Shorten
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Relation: Wife (Head) (Head)
Gender: Female
Where born: Storrington, Sussex, England
Civil parish: Broadwater
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street Address: 5 Western Cottages
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Butlers Wife
Registration district: East Preston
Sub-registration district: Worthing
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1117
Folio: 60
Page Number: 51
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary A. Shorten 60
Fredk. Shorten 18
Charles Wilson 9


Going on the area that the Shortens were in 1861;

1871 England Census about Charles Wilson
Name: Charles Wilson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Southill, Bedfordshire, England
Civil parish: Chelsea St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: Upper Chelsea Trinity
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, North-East
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 102
Piece: 88
Folio: 120
Page Number: 29
Household Members:
Name Age
Emma S Brownlow 79
Harriet Reader 42
Mary A Simms 40
Charles Wilson 25 >>> Boot Man
William J William 21
Ellen Brown 18
Hannah Rickard 18

This may lead to nothing, but at least it's something to start with.

Ancestry do not have all the scottish marriages as they would be on scotlandspeople


BUT getting no hits on sp for a Charles Wilson to a Brown between 1861 and 1875

...or, they may never married?

Have looked all over the Scottish marriages on ancestry and igi family search to no avail

Obvious answer is that the marriage could have been in Scotland

Have you looked on familysearch of any possibles

Have purchased Charles Wilson's birth certificate. His parents were Charles Wilson and Johanna (Joan) Brown.
I know that his parents married in 1867/8 from the info on 1911 census, and that Charles had a sibling.
I cant find their marriage anywhere or any trace of Charles Wilson(father). The birth certificate says that the father was a "butler domestic servant"
Any clues please people, would be much appreciated

this could be his birth
name: Charles Wilson
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1872
Registration district: St George Hanover Square
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 380

Sloane Square is a small hard-landscaped square on the boundaries of the fashionable London districts of Knightsbridge, Belgravia and Chelsea,

ST. GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : London.
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.10.1933 (to become part of City of Westminster registration district)
Sub-districts : Belgrave, Hanover Square, Knightsbridge, Mayfair, Mayfair & Knightsbridge, St. John, St. Margaret, St. Margaret & St. John, Victoria, Westminster St. John, Westminster St. Margaret.

If this is Joan's death.....she is on 1871, 1881 and 1891 as a servant - living-in

Name: Joan Wilson
Birth Date: abt 1844
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1920
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: East Preston
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 2b
Page: 473

Charles's marriage cert won't tell you anything about his mother.

The only document with that info is his birth cert - if there was one for him

Why don't you look for Charles in 1881?

It's FREE.......and his father may be recorded