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I would really appreciate some advice on how to trace details of Harry and Clifford Cartwright who may be brothers or possibly father and son. The only information I have is that they were witnesses at the marriage of Charlotte Pitcher and Ernest Smith in Croydon on 6 June 1933. Any help as to how I could make a start to obtain more information would be really appreciated. Thank you.

Did they give any middle name/initial at all on the marriage certificate?

Im guessing you dont know anything else about them?


Also, how old were the bride and groom?

There were no middle names given at all and yes you are correct - I just don't know anything else at all about them.

Charlotte Pitcher was aged 50 and Ernest Smith was 65.

Just had a play with FreeBMD and 1911 and nothing jumped out. I do have one idea but it isn't quick.

Look at all the Harry and Clifford Cartwrights on FreeBMD for the possible period that they could have been alive for, then see if you can find them in a census. Of course Harry might not really be Harry but so long as you look for the alternates.

I wish you luck. If someone was trying to work out who the witnesses were on our marriage cert, I can't see any way it could be done. One was the collegue who brought me and hubby together and was a Maid of Honour and the other was R's best man, friend of many years, having met at the Baseball Ground, Derby.

I think with luck, you might find them. Easier to track two relatives rather than non-connected individuals.

Had Charlotte and Ernest always lived in Croydon, or had they come from elsewhere?
Thanks

Added:
These are together on 1911, but a long way from Croydon
CARTWRIGHT, Sam Head Married 17 years M 44 1867 Coal Getter Hewer Yorkshire Greasbro
xxx CARTWRIGHT, Harry Son M 12 1899 School Rawmarsh Greasbro
xxx CARTWRIGHT, Clifford Son M 9 1902 School Yorkshire Greasbro
WRIGHT Servant Single F 40 1871 General Staffs Sandbank
DAWSON, Walter Boarder Single M 60 1851 Road Man Yorks Greasbro
GOLDIN, Walter Boarder Single M 39 1872 Cinder Getter
GOLDIN, Arthur Boarder Single M 42 1869 Cinder Getter

RG number: RG14 Piece: 28101 Reference: RG14PN28101 RG78PN1605 RD511 SD4 ED8 SN141

Registration District: Rotherham Sub District: Rawmarsh Enumeration District: 8 Parish: Rawmarsh

Address: 56 Pottery St Rawmarsh Rotherham County: Yorkshire (West riding)

Jillian - thank you very much for the FreeBMD idea. It's certainly worth a try but as you say it won't be quick. However, over the years of researching I've learned to be patient!

Patchem - thank you too for your reply. I have been unable to find out anything about Charlotte's whereabouts between 1913 when she reluctantly gave up my father for adoption until 1933 when she married Ernest. The 20 years between those dates are a complete blank. As for Ernest I believe he had lived in and around London for some time. According to the marriage certificate both of them were living at the same address in Croydon at the time of their marriage. It appears that whilst Ernest declared himself a bachelor he was in fact married with twelve children. I have researched that side of the family with no luck at all re the Cartwrights. I've been really hoping I could find some information on Harry and Clifford through their descendants and in turn discover more details about Charlotte. It's all a long shot I know. However, you have come up with members of the same family with their names even though they're a long way from London and for that I thank you..

In reply to my enquiry to the present vicar of the church they were married in he told me that any historic records for the church were now held by Surrey Records Office but they were unable to help me. I had thought Perhaps I could find out more details that way. It was worth a try though.

Forgive me if you already know this but don't take them shown as living at the same address at the time of the marriage. It was a well-known way of getting out of paying for the Banns to be read in another parish where eg the groom lived. Of course it might also be that if they were read in another parish his significant other might have got to hear about it.

Just playing again. Have put in Clifford Cartwright yob 1902 and this has come up for deaths in Yorkshire on here

Death Record
Clifford Cartwright
Year of Registration 1987
Month of Registration August
Registration District Rotherham
Registration County Yorkshire
Date of Birth18 September 1902
Volume Number 3
Volume Page 915

I need to share the computer now but later if I can I'll come back and look for more for you. I don't know if any of the other entries are possibles

Added

Births Sep 1902 (>99%)
Cartwright Clifford Rotherham 9c 822

Too many Clifford marriages to guess which one might be correct

I think this might be the birth for Harry. Reason behind my thinking is same place of birth shown on 1911 and Clifford's birth registered in Rotherham. And I Googled Greasborough and it comes up as a suburb of Rotherham.

Births Mar 1899 (>99%)
Cartwright Harry Rotherham 9c 765

Harry Cartwright bn Greasborough shows up on one tree on GR. It's on page two of three.

Is Pitcher her maiden or married name?

Have you tried contacting everybody who has a Clifford Cartwright in their tree?

1901 Census Household Record
Address 25 Mill St
Civil Parish Greasbrough
Rural District Town or Village or Hamlet Greasbrough
Ecclesiastical Parish Greasbrough St Mary
Parliamentary Borough or Division Rotherham
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District Greasbrough
Administrative County Yorkshire West Riding

Householder 1
Name Harry Cartwright
Relation to Head of Family Grand Son
Condition as to Marriage Single
Age Last Birthday 2
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Yorks Greasbro
Language
Infirmity

Householder 2
Name James Cartwright
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Widower

Age Last Birthday 60
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Engine Driver Stock Mill
Employment Status
Where Born Notts Misson
Language
Infirmity

Householder 3
Name Mary E Cartwright
Relation to Head of Family Grand Daughter
Condition as to Marriage Single
Age Last Birthday 5
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Yorks Greasbro
Language
Infirmity

Householder 4
Name Samuel Cartwright
Relation to Head of Family Son
Condition as to Marriage Married

Age Last Birthday 34
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Coal Hewer Miner
Employment Status
Where Born Lincolns Everton
Language
Infirmity

Householder 5
Name Sarah J Cartwright
Relation to Head of Family Daughter In Law
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 30
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Yorks Greasbro
Language
Infirmity

Looks like Harry had an older sister. This one fits with the census

Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
Cartwright Mary Eliza Rotherham 9c 689

Found her in1911
Address Broom House Farm Rotherham Rotherham
Parish Rotherham
Town Rotherham Rotherham
Type of Building Private House
Number of Rooms 6
Inhabited Y
ReferenceRG14PN28050 RG78PN1603 RD511 SD2 ED8 SN85
Administrative County Yorkshire (West Riding)
Registration District Rotherham
Registration Sub District South East Rotherham
Enumeration District 8

Householder 1
Name Richard Pepper
Relationship to Head of HouseholdHead
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender M
Age 30
Estimated Year of Birth 1881
Occupation Farmer
Employed Y
Working at Home Y
Industry Son Working Of Farm
Place of BirthNorbor Derbyshire
Nationality English

Householder 2
Name Evelnyn Pepper
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Condition / Years Married / 6 Years
Total Children Born Alive 3
Children Still Living 3
Gender F
Age 26
Estimated Year of Birth1885
Employed N
Working at HomeN
Place of Birth Yorks Holmes Rotherham
NationalityEnglish

Householder 3
Name Gertrude Hanson
Relationship to Head of HouseholdVisitor
Condition / Years Married/ 10 Years
Total Children Born Alive3
Children Still Living 2
Children Who Have Died 1
Gender F
Age 32
Estimated Year of Birth 1879
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Yorks Grinsby Lincolnshire
Nationality English

Householder 4
Name Vera Hanson
Relationship to Head of Household Daughter
Gender F
Age3
Estimated Year of Birth 1908
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Yorks Heringthorp Rotherham
Nationality English

Householder 5
Name J James Hanson
Relationship to Head of Household Son
Gender M
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1907
Occupation Juvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Yorks Heringthorp Rotherham
NationalityEnglish

Householder 6
Name Mary Cartwright
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Condition / Years Married / Years
Gender F
Age15
Estimated Year of Birth 1896
Occupation Domestic Servant
Employed Y
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Greasbro Yorks

Householder 7
Name Mary Hanson
Relationship to Head of Household Niece
Gender F
Age 2
Estimated Year of Birth 1909
OccupationJuvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Southsea Hants

Householder 8

Name Gertrude J Hanson
Relationship to Head of Household Niece
Gender F
Age 4
Estimated Year of Birth 1907
OccupationJuvenile
Employed N
Working at Home N
Place of Birth Erringthap Rotherham Yorks

Not really intending to do the family tree of the Cartwright family but just hoping that the link might show.

Mary shows up on the tree for the same person as Harry. I can't find Clifford though.

Bed now. Hope this helps.xx

did Charlotte say she was a spinster on the certificate?


If so, could she also have lied??



Did she give the name of her father on the certificate?


Did she give an occupation for herself?






sylvia

One other thing you might look for IF you do manage to find the Parish Register ...............


......... did Harry and Clifford act as witnesses for any other marriages around that time period?


Sometimes people did not have any friends with them, and certain men of the parish (gravedigger, sexton, etc) would act as witnesses ...... for a small fee.


They are known as Professional Witnesses.



They were quite common in the 19th century, but I don't know how long the practice lasted.


I did hear in the 1950s of people on the street being asked to act as witnesses.




sylvia

Jillian, Patchem and Sylvia - thank you so much for all your help and suggestions and the time you've given to helping me out. I really do appreciate it.

Jillian - I will certainly look into the Cartwright family you located - there can't be that many Cartwright families with both Harry and Clifford and up to now I've haven't been able to find any. By the way, it hadn't occurred to me that Charlotte and Ernest may not have been living at the same address.

Patchem - yes, I have tried finding both Cartwrights in family trees but with no luck. Pitcher was Charlotte's maiden name.

Sylvia - Charlotte did say she was a spinster on the certificate and every record I've checked would confirm this. Her father's name on the cert was George Robert Pitcher and again this checks out. She doesn't give any occupation.

I wonder if the Cartwrights were indeed Professional Witnesses - I hadn't really given this much thought but it could be a possibility if Charlotte and Ernest didn't know anyone else. As you suggest I could also have a go at seeing if the Cartwrights were witnesses to other marriages around the same time.

Again thank you all for the ideas you've given me.

Do you have your father's birth cert please?

What details were on there?

Where and when was he born?

Did Charlotte give an occupation and address?

Dea x

It took some doing as I'd always known my father by his adopted name but I did eventually obtain his birth certificate. He was born on 14 October 1913 at 18 Francis Street in Plymouth. His Christian names were John Hocking. A line is crossed through the column relating to his father's details. His mother was Charlotte Amelia Jane Pitcher, a domestic servant and her address is the same as the place of birth, i.e. 18 Francis Street. At the far right of the certificate is noted Adopted followed by the name of the Superintendent Registrar.

I did notice that Charlotte was based around the Devonport area. Speculating without any substance here but your dad's father could have been a sailor. To counter that suggestion, I've just looked for the surname Hocking and there are masses of all ages in Devon during the 1911.

Going to have a think whilst I'm in the kitchen.x

I'm sure you're right about a possible naval connection. His birith certificate was in the name of John Hocking Pitcher. You're again absolutely correct about the name Hocking - it's very common both in Cornwall and Devon. It's only during the last couple of years that I discovered that my father was born in Plymouth as Saltash was always put down as his place of birth on all his records and that was where he was adopted.

(By the way I have traced my father's family tree from finding a short birth certificate and discovered he was adopted when he was 16 by a Frederick and Julia Dunston who although they had 4 children of their own they also adopted another 4 young men)

Charlotte remarried in 1937 to Edward Huggins and I managed to contact the family of the witnesses shown on the certificate. One of the descendants was actually with Charlotte when she died in 1952 but they were unable to shed any light whatsoever on her past life. None of Charlotte's sisters's descendants knew anything about her either.

I feel I'm on a mission now to find out just what happened to her between 1913 when my father was born and 1933 when she married for the first time. It was because I've exhausted all avenues through her marriages and her own family that I decided to search for the Cartwrights in case I could find out anything through their descendants. xx

I'm sure you're right about a possible naval connection. His birith certificate was in the name of John Hocking Pitcher. You're again absolutely correct about the name Hocking - it's very common both in Cornwall and Devon. It's only during the last couple of years that I discovered that my father was born in Plymouth as Saltash was always put down as his place of birth on all his records and that was where he was adopted.

(By the way I have traced my father's family tree from finding a short birth certificate and discovered he was adopted when he was 16 by a Frederick and Julia Dunston who although they had 4 children of their own they also adopted another 4 young men)

Charlotte remarried in 1937 to Edward Huggins and I managed to contact the family of the witnesses shown on the certificate. One of the descendants was actually with Charlotte when she died in 1952 but they were unable to shed any light whatsoever on her past life. None of Charlotte's sisters's descendants knew anything about her either.

I feel I'm on a mission now to find out just what happened to her between 1913 when my father was born and 1933 when she married for the first time. It was because I've exhausted all avenues through her marriages and her own family that I decided to search for the Cartwrights in case I could find out anything through their descendants. xx