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My 2XGreat Grandfather is giving me a headache. I wonder if anyone can help me...?

His name was William OAKES and he married Agnes HOLT on 19 Aug 1866 (Certificate). Both parties gave their address as 25 Princess St Manchester and his father's name was given as Richard OAKES, a Brickmaker. The 1871 census showed the family lived in Barton upon Irwell and that all of them were born there. (I know this to be untrue because Agnes was born in Manchester.) The 1881 census gives William's birthplace as Ashton, Lancashire. Both census returns suggest he was born in 1842 or 1843. William died 5 December 1881 in Patricroft.

I have searched filmed parish registers and transcriptions available on Lancs OPC for Eccles, Ashton-under-Lyne and Ashton-in-Makerfield but have not uncovered a baptism. There IS a William Oak(e)s baptised 6 June 1841 (data from Lancs OPC), son of Richard, a miner from Worsley. This isn't my ancestor though. :-( The 1861 census showed that this WIlliam was living with his father and working as a coal miner like his dad. The 1871 census shows coal miner William still living in Worsley, while my ancestor lived in nearby Barton and worked as a Lurryman.

I've been trying to solve this one for years on and off. I wonder if he moved to Barton because there was family in the neighbourhood (there are OAKES families there), but there is no obvious link. I'm reluctant to give up on him but he's just a brick wall for me. Can anyone give me any pointers or ideas of where to look next?

Regards and happy Easter,

Isobel

Sometimes, families baptised their children as job lots, many years after their birth, so if you haven't done so already, widen your search parameters.

Have you considered they may have been non conformists or RC? Perhaps they didn't bother at all - lol

Just a thought - there is this later marriage of Richard Oakes Bricklayer. Could William have been born to Betsy pre this marriage? Edit - in 1861 there is no sign of a Willaim with them and Richard has become a Railway Guard

Marriage: 12 Jun 1853 St Mary the Virgin, Deane, Lancashire, England
Richard Oakes - (X), 28 Brick-Maker Bachelor of Halliwell
Betsy Mosley - (X), 27 Spinster of Halliwell
Groom's Father: John Oakes, Labourer
Bride's Father: William Mosley, Farmer
Witness: Samuel Woodward, (X); Betty Woodward, (X)
Married by Banns by: Benjm. Hodgens
Register: Marriages 1852 - 1855, Page 82, Entry 164
Source: Microfilm held by Manchester Central Library

Who were the witnesses to William and Agnes marriage?
Did it state his dad was alive?

Maryb

1851 England Census
about William H Mosley Name: William H Mosley
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Betty Mosley
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Newchurch, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Newchurch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Nicholas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Haslingden
Sub-registration district: Newchurch
ED, institution, or vessel: 1f
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Piece: 2248
Folio: 148
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Betty Mosley 40
William H Mosley 8
Alice Mosley 6

William Henry Mosley died A/M/J 1851 Salford Lancs V20 655.

Maryb.

Mother Betty was 40 in 1851 whereas Betsy was 27 in 1853 according to the marriage record.

on the theory that William was born pre marriage there is this one

ancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1842
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
MOSLEY William Salford Regent Road Salford RR/9/43

and another in 1844

I think this is the couple in 1861 whose marriage in 1856 I posted.

There is no sign of a previous child William and in 1851 Betsy is lving at home with no son William. I don't think this is the right family

1861

Name: Richd Oaks
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Betsey Oaks
Gender: Male
Where born: Ainsworth, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Radcliffe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Radcliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 103
Piece: 2854
Folio: 75
Page Number: 22
Household Members:
Name Age
Richd Oaks 35
Betsey Oaks 34
Lucy Oaks 6

1851

Name: Betsy Mosley
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Wm Mosley
Mother's Name: Jane Mosley
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Radcliffe, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Radcliffe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Radcliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 1d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 87
Piece: 2216
Folio: 99
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm Mosley 46
Jane Mosley 47
David Mosley 26
Betsy Mosley 24
Eli Mosley 20
Duke Mosley 18
Sarah Mosley 14
Wm Mosley 10
Lucy Mosley 7
Martha Mosley 5
Richd Mosley 1

Wow - thank you all for the information about the Richard Oak(e)s & Betty Mosley connection! It doesn't look like it went anywhere in the end, but it gives me some food for thought. Maybe there is a link somewhere?

Mary, you asked who the witnesses were to the marriage and if William's father was noted as being deceased. The certificate isn't that clear but it looks like Mark X of Edward H--shall (possibly Henshall or Hinshall) and Mark X of Harriett Woolmer. There is nothing to suggest that William's father was deceased at the time of the wedding.

Maybe I should now try to follow this lead, because Harriett Woolmer is not one of Agnes Holt's siblings, but William and Agnes named their only daughter Harriet...

Hmmmm... Off to Ancestry I go to check out if there's a Harriet Oakes who married a Woolmer, or maybe even a William Woolmer whose dad was a brickmaker!!

You're all so good for taking time out to try & help me solve this - THANK YOU. <3

We haven't got very far for you but there are many of us working on this for you.

Come back to us with anything you find and we will ty to work it through with you.

Dea Xxx

???1851 any good edit now reading it i see its a wrong father'sname
National Archive Reference:
RG number: HO107 Piece: 1989 Folio: 587 Page: 14


Reg. District: Madeley Sub District: Much Wenlock
Parish: Wenlock Enum. District: 1C
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough: Wenlock
Address: Burton, Wenlock
County: Shropshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
OAKES, William Head Married M 55 1796 Brick Maker
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, Maria Wife Married F 35 1816
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, Richard Son Unmarried M 22 1829 Brick Maker
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, Thomas Son Unmarried M 11 1840 Brick Maker
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, William Son Unmarried M 8 1843
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, Emma Daughter Unmarried F 6 1845
Broseley
Salop
OAKES, Elizabeth Daughter Unmarried F 5 1846
Brigenorth
Salop
OAKES, Sarah Daughter Unmarried F 3 1848
Brigenorth
Salop
BRUSLEY, William Lodger Unmarried M 20 1831 Ag Labourer
Broseley
Salop

I wondered about that one too Jan, especially as the address is BURTON ! - Not quite unlike BARTON !!!

BUT, I could not connect it up !!

Dea Xxx

1861 could a potter make bricks?

861 census transcription details for: Chapel Lane, Wolstanton

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG09 Piece: 1921 Folio: 16 Page: 29


Reg. District: Wolstanton Sub District: 1 Wolstanton
Parish: Wolstanton Enum. District: 1
Ecclesiastical District: Wolstanton City/Municipal Borough:
Address: Chapel Lane, Wolstanton
County: Staffordshire

Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth
Year Occupation ,
Disability Where Born
OAKES, Richard Head Married M 55 1806 Potter
Wolstanton
Staffordshire
OAKES, Charlotte Wife Married F 55 1806
Burslem
Staffordshire
OAKES, William Son Unmarried M 19 1842 Potter
Wolstanton
Staffordshire
OAKES, Joseph Son Unmarried M 11 1850 Potter
Wolstanton
Staffordshire
MASSEY, Henry Boarder Unmarried M 23 1838 Potter
Wolstanton
Staffordshire

Could this marriage possibly rule out the Wolstanton census ???

William Oakes
Groom's Birth Date: 1842
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 33
Bride's Name: Charlotte Slater
Bride's Birth Date:1841
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 34
Marriage Date: 26 Mar 1875
Marriage Place: Wolstanton, Stafford, England
Groom's Father's Name: Richard Oakes
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: Joseph Slater
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01003-5
System Origin: England-VR
Source Film Number: 1517618
Reference Number: 2:26PZSZR

Linda

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1847
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
WOOLMER Harriet Ancoats Manchester ANC/37/63

baptism shows parents William & Mary - Mary's probable maiden name Jones - William was a plasterer

Hi

Thanks for the info about Harriet, LancashireAnn. I found reference to her death in 1868, a year after witnessing the wedding of my 2 X great-grandparents, then followed the trail back to discover her parents William & Mary Woolmer in the 1851 and 1861 census. Her parents were living in John Jones in 1861 and by doing more digging I was able to ascertain that Harriet's mother was born Mary Jones in Pilkington in 1823. My original query was about William Oakes, who married Agnes Holt. Agnes's mother was Hannah Jones, born about 1808 in Pilkington and she was another of my brick walls! It looks like Mary and Hannah were sisters, daughters of John Jones and his wife Martha - so now I've got my Jones side back another generation (and who knows what I'll find once I start digging)! Good news for me, even if it doesn't answer my original query I've been able to fill in another gap! :-D

Thanks again!