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I suppose that is likely. Thanks.

there doesn't seem to be a death for Edward Herdman between 1867-1871 so maybe she left him and moved in with George Rutter

1851 England Census about Edward Herdman
Name: Edward Herdman
Age: 74
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1777
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen Herdman
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Pilling, Lancashire, England
Civil parish: Birkenhead
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image
Registration district: Wirral
Sub-registration district: Birkenhead
ED, institution, or vessel: 1m
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 19
Piece: 2175
Folio: 400
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward Herdman 74
Ellen Herdman 64
Sarah Herdman 40
Ellen Herdman 33
Richd Herdman 23
Ellanor Herdman 14
Sarah Anne Herdman 11
Elizth Harper 35
M Mason 20

Hotel Keeper same as marriage cert of his son

1911
RUTTER, Martha Head Widow F 74 1837 Boarding House Keeper Harrogate VIEW
RUTTER, Florence Daughter Single F 33 1878 Harrogate VIEW
RUTTER, Thomas Son Single M 31 1880 Retail Grocer Leeds Yorks VIEW
WRAW, Beatrice Minnie Granddaughter F 9 1902 Middlesborough VIEW
TEARE, Lewis Henry Boarder Single M 22 1889 Retail Chemist Isle of Man Tell VIEW
SHAW, Edwin Luther Boarder Single M 30 1881 Cabinet Maker Outlane Huddersfield VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
27022 Reference:
RG14PN27022 RG78PN1548B RD500 SD3 ED41 SN172

Registration District:
Leeds Sub District:
West Leeds Enumeration District:
41 Parish:
Leeds

Address:
75 Tonbridge Street County:
Yorkshire (West riding)



Name: RUTTER, Minnie
Registration District: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Spouse's last name: Not available before 1912
Volume No: Help 9B
Page No: Help 873

spouse George Wraw

West Yorkshire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1922 about Edward Hewman
Name: Edward Hewman
Age: Full Age
Marriage or Bann Date: 5 Sep 1857
Parish: Knaresbrough and Harrogate
Father's Name: Edward Hewman
Spouse's Name: Martha Barf
Spouse's Father's Name: Thomas Barf

Herdman on the original, hes a widower, hotel keeper

can anybody tell me where I have done this wron. I tried to look for Eliza's baptism in the parish register using the above transcription but can't see it

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12446-75832-77?cc=1788853&wc=10932436

1891
RUTTER, Martha Head Widow F 52 1839 Lodging House
Harrogate VIEW
RUTTER, Minnie Daughter Single F 19 1872
Liverpool VIEW
RUTTER, Florance Daughter Single F 15 1876
Harrogate VIEW
RUTTER, Thomas Son Single M 12 1879 Scholar
Leeds VIEW
Piece:
3703 Folio:
83 Page:
37 Registration District:
Leeds

Civil Parish:
Leeds Municipal Borough:
Leeds Address:
40, Fenton Street, Leeds County:
Yorkshire (West Riding)

????

Groom's Name: Edward Hardman
Groom's Birth Date: 1838
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 21
Bride's Name: Martha Gee
Bride's Birth Date: 1840
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 19
Marriage Date: 17 Jul 1859
Marriage Place: Farnworth (Near Prescot), Lancashire, England
Groom's Father's Name: Henry Hardman
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: William Gee
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M01060-8
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1655237
Reference Number: it 1, p. 68

Thank you safc that looks like the one. I just need to find Edward now :)

This looks like Martha in 1861 -s ame POB as 1871:

1861 England Census
about Martha Herdman - occupation Hotel Keeper
Name: Martha Herdman
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Harrisgate, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age
Martha Herdman 24
Mary A Herdman 3
Martha E Herdman 1
Mary Ann Barff 26
Mary Harton 23
Fanny Lewis 22
Alice Cockridge 30
George Foster 22
James Armstrong 18
Edward Broadhead 22
Elizabeth Normald 47
Ann Murphy 25
Mary Cullen 27

????

Name: Eliza Maria Hardman
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 02 Oct 1864
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Savior's Church, Chorlton-upon-Medlock, Lancashire, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Edward Hardman
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Martha
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I02959-3
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 2113057
Reference Number: 69

No, Martha would have been married to one of Elizabeth's brothers listed in my original post. But when she married George she would have been Martha Herdman if she had married one of Elizabeth's brothers first.

All the evidence points that Martha was their mother. What isn't certain is if she married a Herdman or just had his children.

At this stage you don't know that Martha was their mother.

The information you're looking for is on the birth certificates.

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915 about Edward Herdman
Name: Edward Herdman
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1857
Registration district: Knaresborough
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume Number: 9a
Page Number: 7&f5=9a">120 (click to see others on page)

Martha Barf

A possible

Martha Herdman to George Rutter.

"their mother was Martha Rutter married to George"

"I can't find a marriage of Martha Herdman to George Rutter"

are we looking for a marriage of Martha Rutter or Martha Herdman please

.
Births Jun 1867
Herdman Ada - W. Derby 8b 454

1871 forinfo
RUTTER, George Head M 21 1850 Cheshire VIEW
RUTTER, Martha Wife F 28 1843 Yorkshire VIEW
HERDMAN, Eliza Step-Daughter F 6 1865 Lancashire VIEW
HERDMAN, Ada Step-Daughter F 3 1868 Lancashire VIEW
RUTTER, Minnie Daughter F 0 1871 Lancashire VIEW
Piece:
3821 Folio:
27 Page:
45 Registration District:
West Derby

Civil Parish:
Everton Municipal Borough:
Liverpool Address:
Aber Street, Everton, Liverpool County:
Lancashire

Born 1864

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1864

HERDMAN Eliza Maria - Ardwick Manchester