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I have the above ancestor on the paternal side of my tree. My current research has revealed quite an odd entry on the 1891 census, as follows:-
Head - Samuel Piper born1849 Kenninton
Wife - Helen Piper born 1848 Burgh, Lincolnshire
Daughter - Bessie Piper born 1873 Ipswich, Suffolk
Son - Ernest Piper born 1874 Ipswich
Daughter - Rachel Piper born 1883 Hackney - (Rachel was my great grandmother)

then we have the confusing part:

Stepson - Henry Wain born 1872 Holloway, London
Stepson - William Wain born 1875 Holloway, London
Stepdaughter - Nellie Wain born 1874 Holloway, London

We therefore have natural children and step-children born in Rachel and Nellie's case the same year and in quite different locations. So who is the mother of the Wain children???

I cant find a marriage for Samuel and Rachel.

I cant find any of the 3 Wain children in the Census records except Henry who is on the 1911 Census and now married.

Can someone please enlighten me as to how this may be correct - thanks,

1881 England Census about Henry S. Piper
Name: Henry S. Piper
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen Piper
Mother's name: Harriett Hammerton
Gender: Male
Where born: Kennington, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Stoke Newington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 47 Kynaston Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Provision Merchant
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: Stoke Newington
ED, institution, or vessel: 6a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 282
Folio: 79
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry S. Piper 33
Ellen Piper 31
Bessie C. Piper 8
Ernest H.W. Piper 7
Florence Winn 8
Henry J. Winn 7
William G. Winn 6
Nellie Winn 4
Edith H. Winn 3
Harriett Hammerton 68
George Hammerton 30
Amy Clark 20

Holloway is an inner-city district in the London Borough of Islington


Children's birth certs


Births Mar 1875
Wain William George Islington 1b 451

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Births Sep 1876
WAIN Nellie Islington 1b 385

Marriages Sep 1880 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BLAIR Ethelbert William Hackney 1b 854
Knight Emily Isabella Hackney 1b 854
***************Piper Henry Samuel - Hackney 1b 854
***********Wain Helen - Hackney 1b 854

Ok - so the name is Winn and not Wain and they are the children of Henry and Ellen Piper but living with Samuel and Helen - is that right?

Samuel is Henry Samuel.
Looks like Helen was married previously

Check children's birth certs to confirm

Marriages Jun 1870 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRAZIER Hannah Islington 1b 321
Greenwood William Islington 1b 321
**********HAMMERTON Helen - Islington 1b 321
********WAIN William Joseph - Islington 1b 321

First husband's death


Deaths Dec 1878
WAIN William Joseph -34 - Islington 1b 222

Just for info

Name: Henry Samuel Piper
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Spouse Name: Helen Wain
Spouse Age: 32
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Aug 1880
Parish: Stoke Newington St Mary
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Samuel Piper
Spouse Father Name: Jonatham Hammerton
Register Type: Parish Register

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Nellie Wain
Name: Nellie Wain
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1888
Baptism Date: 13 Aug 1888
Father's Name: William Joseph Wain
Mother's name: Ellen Helen Wain
Parish or Poor Law Union: Hackney St John
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers

The Wain and Piper children baptized all on the same day

Just for info

Name: Helen Hammerton
Spouse Name: William Joseph Wain
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Jun 1870
Parish: Barnsbury St Clement
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Jonathan Hammerton
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Wain
Register Type: Parish Register

Thanks both - so the Wain is probably the correct name - I will try and unravel it from what you have given me. Thanks.

Seems she was registered as Ellen

Births Dec 1847 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HAMMERTON Ellen - Spilsby 14 529

1871 England Census about Helen Wain
Name: Helen Wain
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Wm J Wain
Gender: Female
Where born: Burgh, Lincolnshire, England
Civil parish: Islington St David
Ecclesiastical parish: St David
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Islington
Sub-registration district: Islington West
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Household schedule number: 6
Piece: 270
Folio: 4
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Wm J Wain 36
Helen Wain 23
Hannah A Wain 17

Thanks again to all - I can see it all clearly now - I just couldnt work it out previously.

Evidently both Samuel/Henry Samuel and Ellen/Helen were previously married and the Piper children were his from his first marriage while the Wain/Winn children were hers from her first marriage. Rachel seems to be a daughter of both.

" I cant find a marriage for Samuel and Rachel " ... ( I assume you mean separately)

She was born Rachel Lilian


Births Mar 1883 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piper Rachel Lilian - Hackney 1b 505


So this is probably her marriage


Marriages Sep 1907 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CURRELL Hubert George Hackney 1b 964
*********PIPER Rachel Lilian - Hackney 1b 964
POPKIN Horace Sidney Hackney 1b 964
POSGATE Annie Margaret Hackney 1b 964


Do you know which of these is your Gt Grandfather ?
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EDIT :

Looks like it was Hubert George Currell as this is Rachel in 1911

CURRELL RACHEL LILIAN- F -1883 -28 -Edmonton Middlesex

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Ernest Henry Piper
Name: Ernest Henry Piper
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1878
Baptism Date: 11 Aug 1878
Father's Name: Henry Samuel Piper
Mother's name: Edna Piper
Parish or Poor Law Union: Newington St Mary
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers

Wife was Edna

What a confusing family I had! If only they had used all their proper names in the proper way. I guess the old handwriting left a lot as to interpretation!At least my Rachel was from both - so I can properly post them on my tree now with the other branches for info only!

Thanks again.

Sorry Mike - missed you eariier post. Yes Hubert George Currell was my Gt grandfather - so all is good. Thanks.