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Joy,

Family stories are often just that, stories. Sometimes they are true, sometimes they are not and sometimes they are the result of a misunderstanding or misinterpreted remark.

My grandmother used to say that she was a descendant of an earl. She was joking but she was telling the truth, her maternal grandmother was called Maria Earl. A friend of mine who was born illegitimately used to say that his mother, who was working as a cook, was seduced by his father who was a very prominent member of the royal family with naval connections. He was joking and we all knew that but what if his grandchildren hear the story one day and believe it to be true?

In your particular circumstance you have a newspaper wedding notice from 1889 were it is reported that the bride is a rather distant relative, (Great Grand Niece, Great Granddaughter, Grand Niece) of titled people in a country 12,000 miles away. Those facts may be true but they could also be fictitious or invented by the bride, the brides father, the brides grandfather or by a newspaper journalist. To an extent you believe that the facts may be true because your mother used to say that there were Sirs and Ladies in the family. Then you have the story that a distant Rivers family member ran off with a family servant and despite financial inducements refused to return home. Again similar stories are very common amongst those seeking to learn about their ancestors.

Someone once said to me that you should believe about 50% of what you hear but only about 25% of what you read in a newspaper. Personal experience has taught me that that is just about correct.

I wish you all the best in unravelling your particular mystery but I think that you may find that it is just one of those family stories without foundation.

thanks for your help ill solder on if you come across any info i would appreciate hearing it Joy

who knows, Joy!


we can't find out where your William John born ca 1800 was born, so it's all still guesswork.




sylvia

This is a bit early...but evidence of money maybe? From "A History of Hampstead"

Already containing several substantial houses in the 17th century, Pond Street gained in importance from the wells, as it was the route by which early carriage visitors reached Well Walk, to the disgust of traders in High Street.In 1745 Pond Street was depicted as spacious and elegant, containing most of the houses existing in1762 on the north side; they included nos. 17 and17A, (fn. 11) probably the 'handsome new house' built by Edward Snoxell on the site of an ancient one soonafter 1740. (fn. 12) In what was later Rosslyn Hill, southof the junction with Pond Street, a second housestood by the 1740s north of the ancient Bartrams,set back from the main road and approached througha grove railed in from the waste. (fn. 13) Two houses werebuilt on the waste near the George by 1756 (fn. 14) and another two by 1758. (fn. 15)

And there is a load of stuff in the National Archives about leases and weddings etc for Edward and William Snoxell Yeomen of Hampstead

But no sign of a title!

I heard from a relative who believes George Rivers (Lord Rivers2) & Mary ? were the parents of our William Rivers born 1802 Stratfield Saye Hampshire who supposedly ran off with the family servant and was offered money to return home but refused separating himself from the family. Could this be possible Joy

I wonder if this is the baptism of that Edward who married Mary Rivers

England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Edward Snoxell
christening: 08 Jun 1766 DUNSTABLE,?BEDFORD,?ENGLAND
residence: Bedford,? England
parents: Edward Snoxell,? Mary



but again, there is NO evidence of any title.




sylvia

but the only Snoxell's I can find on the earliest censuses (1841 and 1851) are mundane ..... ag labs, straw plaiters, blind makers, etc


certainly not of the upper classes!




sylvia

BUT ancestry has the following Snoxell / Rivers marriage

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Edward Snoxell

Name: Edward Snoxell
Spouse Name: Mary Rivers
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 18 Mar 1793
Parish: Southwark St Saviour
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Edward Snoxell of the Parish of Dunstable in Bedfordshire, Batchelor, and Mary Rivers of this Parish, Spinster

Married by Licence

Witnesses:- John Rivers and James Harvey



Just as a note ..... Edward and the 2 witnesses signed their own name. Mary could not write, and "signed" by her mark



sylvia

so we are looking probably for a

Sir or Lord Snoxell

or Sir or Lord Clybourn

or Sir or Lord Rivers.


any of which married, we think, a female Rivers.


They have also got to have been born in the 1750-1780 range, as they are of the generation the FATHER of William John Rivers born c 1800


I've looked on familysearch, and can't see anything

anyone with a title should be listed here

http://www.burkespeerage.com/

I can't find anything any further back than William John's marriage to Margaret Thomas

There seems to be no baptism from William John ....... and I, at least, have not found him on any census, so we don't know where he was born!


Names of fathers were not on parish registers before 1837 ...... sow e don't even have a name for William John's father


It's beginning to feel very much like a family story, that has got embellished over the years! Possibly beginning with that wedding announcement in the Australian paper!


sylvia

I think you have to be very careful with this family ..... they use and re-use the same names over and over again.



How and where did you hear that Margaret's first husband, William John Rivers lived until the 1870s?


This is where you have to be careful!!!



sylvia

1871 Census

Name: Margaret Smith
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1804
Relation: Mother-in-Law
Gender: Female
Where born: Aberystwyth, Wales
Civil parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Walthamstow
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Registration district: West Ham
Sub-registration district: Walthamstow

Charles Foot 38 b.ca 1833, Corfe Castle, Dorset, Carpenter
Isabella J Foot 31 b.ca 1840, St George in the East, Middlesex
Isbella M Foot 11
William C Foot 7
Margaret M Foot 5
Henry E Foot 1
Alfred C Foot 5 Months
Margaret Smith 67 Widow, Nurse (domestic)

Address:- Aubury Cottage, Aubury Road


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Isabella Jane Rivers

Name: Isabella Jane Rivers
Spouse Name: Charles Foot
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Mar 1857
Parish: Stepney St Thomas
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William John Rivers
Spouse Father Name: Charles Foot
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Isabella
Of Full Age
Spinster
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Captain Merchant Service

Charles
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Carpenter
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Dairyman



sylvia

1851 Census

Name: Margaret Thompson
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Aberythbury, Wales

Civil parish: Limehouse
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse

Margaret Thompson 44 Widow, Mariner's Widow
Margaret Morgan 25 b.ca 1826, Stepney, Daughter, Mariner's Wife
Sarah Rivers 16 b.ca 1835, Limehouse
Isabella Rivers 10 b.ca 1841, St George's in the East
Eleanor Rugg 20 Visitor

Address:- 2 New Street


1861 Census

Name: Margaret Smith
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: South Wales, Cardiff

Civil parish: Limehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse

Margaret Smith 54 Married, Mariner's Wife
Mary Morgan 68 b.ca 1793, Cardiff, South Wales, Aunt, Widow, Charwoman
Sarah Esther Rivers 26 b.ca 1835, Limehouse, Middlesex, Daughter, Married, Mariner's Wife
Sarah Ann Cole 7 b.ca 1854, Limehouse, Granddaughter
Isabella Cole 2 b.ca 1859, Limehouse, Granddaughter
Mary Fickey 45 Visitor
Frederick Curwick 22, Boarder, Mariner
William T Tucker 19, Boarder, Mariner

Address:- 1a Wilcomb Place




sylvia

According to a Public Family Tree on ancestry, Margaret Thomas married at least 3 times!

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Thomas

Name: Margaret Thomas
Spouse Name: William Rivers
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 Feb 1824
Parish: St George in the East
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Rivers

Name: Margaret Rivers
Spouse Name: William Thompson
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 10 Oct 1843
Parish: St Mary Stratford Bow
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Thorn <<<<<<<< it is Thomas on the image
Spouse Father Name: Robert Thompson
Register Type: Parish Register

from Image:-

Margaret
Of Full Age
Widow
Residence:- Bow
Father occupation:- Deceased

William
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Residence:- Bow
Occupation:- Mariner
Father occupation:- Deceased



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Margaret Thompson

Name: Margaret Thompson
Spouse Name: Charles Smith
Spouse Age: Full Age
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 4 Sep 1854
Parish: Stepney St Thomas
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Thompson <<<<<<< it is Thomas on the image
Spouse Father Name: Charles Smith
Register Type: Parish Register

From image:-

Margaret
Of Full Age
Widow
Address:- Stepney
Father William Thomas, Carpenter

Charles
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Occupation:- Mariner
Address:- Stepney
Father occupation:- Blacksmith


Censuses seem to support this



sylvia

The above info is my family in the 1841 census where it says Margaret Rivers 35 occ milkwoman was where i thought my GG Grandfather ( William John Rivers) died as she remarried to William Thompson 1843 but have since heard that he lived to about the 1870s but i have not found him as yet. Both my GGGrandfather & GGrandfather WJ Rivers were master Mariners the later in Australia. The" titles" were definitely on on the Rivers side. Joy

1841??

Name: William Rivers
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Anne Limehouse
Hundred: Ossulstone (Tower Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street Address:

Occupation:

View image
Registration district: Stepney
Sub-registration district: Limehouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 701
Book: 6
Folio: 11
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
Margaret Rivers 35 Occ: Milkwoman
Margaret Rivers 15
William Rivers 12
Sarah Rivers 6
Isabella Rivers 1

Lots of mentions of William John Rivers in Sands Directories: Sydney and New South Wales, Australia, 1858-1933. In some he is shown as a Master Mariner living at 12 Franklin Place, Glebe.

It looks as if he married in Sydney in 1861 to a Rebecca Noble. Could the supposed "Titled" background be through her?

Name: William J Rivers
Spouse Name: Rebecca Noble
Marriage Date: 1861
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Sydney, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1861
Registration Number: 190

If you post the facts that you have we might be able to work back for you.

Can you post details of your grandparents on both sides please, when/where they were born, names including maiden names

x

Yes your on the right track sylvia my mother always said there were sirs and ladies in the family but i was taken aback when i found the wedding announcement in the paper. The Pitt Rivers seem to be the only possible solution.Mum mentioned that a family member ran of with the servant hence we became the poor side.If a connection could be found it would solve a mystery ive been unable to find joy

Just out of interest, this is the Parish Register entry for William John Rivers, 1829- 1918

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about William John Rivers

Name: William John Rivers
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1832 <<<< see below
Baptism Date: 11 Jul 1832
Father's Name: William Rivers
Mother's Name: Margaret Rivers
Parish or Poor Law Union: Limehouse St Anne
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Registers

from image:- Born June 14 1829
Address:- Poplar
Father occupation:- Mariner




sylvia