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how did you send for a birth certificate 'wrong area' ? did you request a search instead ? you could try contacting them by phone to see whether you can change the details of the request

hopefully a birth certificate will match the father's name on the marriage certificate

yes I've sent for mary ann's birth cert, although after all this info may need to reapply as they may not find it (wrong area), have also sent for Mary'Ann's marriage cert so that should reveal her father. still not sure about the brother william, as I said I got this off a distant relative's family tree, all the rest of their tree checks out apart fro this, and my mum does not remember a brother..

deece :-)

Do you have either girls birth cert.?
If not, then I think you should buy a copy of one or the other. Although you know from 1911 census that their mother was Margaret, you will need the cert. to find out who their father was.

thanks for all your help.

it's possible that lucy married but my mum was convinced she was a nun, I will ask her again.

it's interesting the info on mary ann on 1911 census that she was born in yorkshire as her death certificate and 191 census say she was born in preston but it is the correct family as my granny is listed (ethel)

i got william's name from a distant relative's tree, they have his name and approx year of birth but not where or parents.

that's what I'd done earlier with the same result so I agree, it looks almost certain :-)

I did a search on freebmd:-

Search for
Type: Births Surname: gordon First name(s): lucy
Start date: Mar 1878 End date: Dec 1882
District: all County: all

so a very wide search to see how many Lucy Gordons were born in England between 1878 and 1882.........

Births Sep 1881 (>99%)
Gordon Lucy Burnley 8e 222

............and the Burnley birth is the only one that came up. So the 1911 census with Lucy married to Hugh looks even more likely!

If you google 130 Villier Street where the Gordon sisters were in 1901 and Mary Ann tiller was at 178 Villiers St in 1911and 86,De lacy Street where Lucy and Hugh Mc Grath was in 1911,you will see they are very close on the map.

Could you have got your info wrong about lucy being a nun.

Maryb.

How do you know they had a brother called William?

.................;;;and where was he born?

Full 1911 for Mary Ann:-

TILLER, George Alexander Head Married M 37 1874 Iron Fitter Iron Foundry Christchurch Hampshire VIEW
TILLER, Mary Ann Wife Married 10 years F 35 1876 Batley Yorkshire VIEW
TILLER, John Alexander Son Single M 9 1902 School Preston Lancashire VIEW
TILLER, Josephine Daughter Single F 7 1904 School Preston Lancashire VIEW
TILLER, May Daughter Single F 3 1908 Preston Lancashire VIEW
TILLER, Ethel Daughter F 1 1910 Preston Lancashire VIEW
GORDON, Margret Mother In Law Widow F 64 1847 Preston Lancashire VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25311 Reference:
RG14PN25311 RG78PN1448 RD476 SD4 ED8 SN10

Registration District:
Preston Sub District:
West Preston Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Preston

Address:
178 Villiers St Preston County:
Lancashire

5 children - 4 living and 1 died

hm, there is no Lucy Gordon birth to match the details in that 1911, i.e. a birth 1877 to 1880, say

she is looking very much like the right person


there is this other death

Name: Lucy G Mcgrath
Birth Date: abt 1878
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1968
Age at Death: 90
Registration district: Ormskirk
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10f
Page: 188

but that would be this Lucy

Marriages Sep 1906
McGRATH Thomas Bernard Birkenhead 8a 1046
YATES Lucy Glover Birkenhead 8a 1046



Getting Lucy Gordon's birth certificate to get her exact date of birth to see whether it matches the date of birth for the death of Lucy McGrath would be a big help

1911 178 Villiers street Preston.
George Alexander Tiller born Hampshire
Mary Ann born Batley 1876 married 10years
Margaret Gordon mum in law born preston 1847.

Maryb

1911 for the couple married in 1906:-

MCGRATTS, Hugh Head Married M 28 1883 Cart Driver Preston Lancs VIEW
MCGRATTS, Lucy Wife Married 4 years F 32 1879 Ring Spinner Cotton Preston Lancs VIEW
MCGRATTS, Wilfred Son Single M 1 1910 Preston Lancs VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
25311 Reference:
RG14PN25311 RG78PN1448 RD476 SD4 ED8 SN359

Registration District:
Preston Sub District:
West Preston Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Preston

Address:
86 de Lacy St Preston County:
Lancashire

there is a death that would be a match for one surname in the 1906 marriage list and Lucy Gordon's quarter of birth

Name: Lucy Mcgrath
Birth Date: 4 Aug 1881
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1969
Age at Death: 87
Registration district: Chorley
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10c
Page: 84

Births Mar 1913
McGrath Francis / Gordon Preston 8e 1026

can't see them in 1911 census on a free search

Name: Hugh Mcgrath
Birth Date: abt 1882
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1958
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Preston
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10f
Page: 320

The Lucy Gordon in 1902 marriage married William Smith:-

GORDON * Lucy SMITH William Henry Burnley Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston RM/121/101

There are a couple of possible marriages for Lucy?

Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
BOOCOCK Elizabeth Burnley 8e 433
Gordon Lucy Burnley 8e 433
Hopkinson Robert Burnley 8e 433
Smith William Henry Burnley 8e 433
Stanley Hannah Burnley 8e 433


Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)
ASPINALL James Preston 8e 1455
Emmerson Annie Preston 8e 1455
GORDON Lucy Preston 8e 1455
McGRATH Hugh Preston 8e 1455

(GORDON Lucy MCGRATH Hugh Preston Register Office or Registrar Attended Preston PRESTON/127/187)

...........is it possible that she did marry?

Haven't got marriage cert yet but have sent for it.

just for ref:-

1901
Name: Lucy Gordon
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Burnley, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Preston
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 193
Piece: 3948
Folio: 139
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Ellen Donelan 21
Mary A Gordon 22 born: Preston, Lancashire
Lucy Gordon 20



possible 1881?
EDIT:- Now we know that mother's name is Margaret you can eliminate this one:-

Name: Mary A. Gordon
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard Gordon
Mother's Name: Mary A. Gordon
Gender: Female
Where born: Broughton, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Broughton in Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 13 Owen St

Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration district: Broughton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2a
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3951
Folio: 31
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Gordon 38
Mary A. Gordon 38
Sarah Gordon 10
William R. Gordon 6
Henry Gordon 4
Mary A. Gordon 3
Alice Gordon

for our info the 1901 census

Name: Lucy Gordon
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Burnley, Lancashire, England

Name: Mary A Gordon
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Preston

does Mary Ann's marriage certificate name a father ?

that is essential information, if you don't have the certificate you do need it

even if it doesn't name a father, you need to know that too :-)

yes my apologies you are right, the only other record of her is in 1901 census as a boarder in preston working in a mill, her sister mary ann is also a boarder in same house, but she marries in the following year to george tiller, i cannot find mary ann before 1901, also they have a brother william b1883