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I did think that Arthur & Percy Sidney could have been different children but the dates of their birth registration was different. Also when I asked the cemetery if they had any burials in those names they only had one for Arthur Percy Sidney. I then ordered a death cert. and it is made out in the name of Arthur Percy Sidney. I don't know if I should go for a birth certificate for one of the birth entries?
I'm having the same problem with one of my other gt.grandparents. the 1911 records 12 live births and 6 deaths. I know of 2 and a possible 1. There is another birth with both grandparents names but it makes them both 16! But as Naomi is not a very common name I'm not sure if I should take it especially as I can't find a death for this baby only baptisim. If only they could come back and let us know!

Denise :-S

I had thought of twins or more...but there are no multiple birth entries at same time. And in those days, the chances of giving birth early to one who died and then going full term on the other are unlikely. Similarly, the chances of premature births surviving also less. The one possibility is that Arthur and Percy Sidney were in fact two children who both died.

I sometimes doubt the information given in 1911. I have a similar situation...I knew of nine children of whom two had died. But in 1911, my great grandmother declared twelve live births of which five had died. So all of a sudden I had three missing children. None appeared on censuses, so if they existed they were born and died between census years. And none of this was helped by the nomadic existence that my grandparents led following the iron and steel industry around the U.K. - the nine were born in six different places (seven if you split Willenhall and Bilston). And that's what makes all of this so addictive....

:-)

Thank you all for your help, especially for confirming that Harry jnr.'s T.T. is Thomas Titchener - his maternal grandfather and maiden name of his paternal grandmother. Alice can't be one of the missing babies as Florence had Lilian in August 1903, Annie in August 1904 and Leslie in August 1905. I am just getting confused as to what years to look in. Poor Florence seemed to always be pregnant. The story goes that she actually had 21 children in all with a set of twins and triplets somewhere, but I'm beginning to doubt that now.
Denise :-)

If Alice was born November / December 1903, she could still perhaps be one of the missing children......?

Gwyn

I think you can possibly rule out these two...

Deaths Mar 1904 (>99%)
BRAIN Alice 0 Lewisham 1d 740 - birth registered Mar 1904 as well and she gave birth to Annie Irene Sep 1904?


Deaths Jun 1898 (>99%)
Brian William Bertram 0 Lewisham 1d 610
Harry Charles (incidentallly Thomas Twitchener) born Sep 1898

What is strange though is that there is a death for Arthur Percy Sidney in Dec 1907 but there is a birth for Arthur in June 1907 and Percy Sidney in Sep 1907!!!!!

Barry, she has those already - see above.
Jan

aah good..makes the puzzle slightly less confusing!

:-)

Judith, have re-checked and it seems they have had 11 children in all not 12.
jan

harry jnr 1901
BRAINE, Charles Head Married M 53 1848 Gardener Not Domestic
Hardwick Priors
Warwickshire VIEW
BRAINE, Rachel Wife Married F 57 1844
Knighton
Berkshire VIEW
BRAINE, May Rachel Daughter Single F 19 1882
Lee
Kent VIEW
BRAINE, Harry Grand Son Single M 2 1899
Lee
Kent VIEW
LOCK, James Boarder Single M 35 1866 General Carman
Bentley
Essex VIEW
JORDAN, Arthur W Boarder Single M 24 1877 Gardener Not Domestic
Missett
Suffolk VIEW
RG number:
RG13 Piece:
547 Folio:
48 Page:
27

Registration District:
Lewisham Sub District:
Lee Enumeration District:
14 Ecclesiastical Parish:
Good Shepherd

Civil Parish:
Lee Municipal Borough:
Address:
37, Taunton Road, Lee County:
London

The Mariott Family tree on Ancestry shows 2 children after1911
Allick Leslie b 1912
Ellen Katherine b 1915

There's also Harold V F in 1918 that matches Brain/Clements

But that obviously doesn't help trace the missing two or three children - if 5 had died (as Brummiejan says) doesn't that mean there should be another living child?

??

1901 England Census

Name: Harry Braine
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1899
Relation: Grandson
Mother's Name: May Rachel Braine
Gender: Male
Where born: Lee, Kent, England

Civil parish: Lee
Ecclesiastical parish: Good Shepherd
County/Island: London

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lee
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 195
Piece: 547
Folio: 48
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Braine 53
Rachel Braine 57
May Rachel Braine 19
Harry Braine 2
James Lock 35
Arthur W Gordan 24

So where is Harry and Harry junior?

Son was born around that time....

Births Jun 1901

Brain Alfred Reginald ...Chelmsford 4a 638

Here is Florence I think\;

1901 England Census

Name: Florence Sarah Bram
[Florence Sarah Clements]
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas Clements
Mother's Name: Susan Clements
Gender: Female
Where born: Good Easter, Essex, England

Civil parish: Good Easter
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
County/Island: Essex

Registration district: Chelmsford
Sub-registration district: Great Waltham

Thomas Clements 52
Susan Clements 48
Herbert Wm Clements 27
Horace Sidney Clements 16
Blanche Evelin Clements 11
Florence Sarah Bram 24

Can anyone find them in 1901 census? :-S

The Mariott Family tree on Ancestry shows 2 children after1911
Allick Leslie b 1912
Ellen Katherine b 1915

I see they married 1898. Just wondering about this one??

Deaths Jun 1898 (>99%)
Brian William Bertram 0 Lewisham 1d 610

Or

Deaths Sep 1903 (>99%)
Brion Doris Lilian 1 Lewisham 1d 546

Deaths Mar 1904 (>99%)
BRAIN Alice 0 Lewisham 1d 740

Just putting for reference. Image says 5 children have died so you are only looking for another 2:

BRAIN, Harry Sidney Head Married M 32 1879 Jobbing Gardener London Lee VIEW
BRAIN, Florence Sarah Wife Married F 35 1876 Baddow Chelmsford VIEW
BRAIN, Harry Charles Son M 12 1899 School London Lee VIEW
BRAIN, Alfred Regnate Son M 10 1901 School Good Easter Essex VIEW
BRAIN, Lillian Rosina Daughter F 8 1903 School London Lee VIEW
BRAIN, Annie Irene Daughter F 6 1905 School London Lee VIEW
BRAIN, Winnfred Blanche Daughter F 3 1908 London Lee VIEW
BRAIN, Florence Rachel Daughter F 1 1910 London Lee VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
2743 Reference:
RG14PN2743 RG78PN94 RD29 SD2 ED14 SN337

Registration District:
Lewisham Sub District:
Lee Enumeration District:
14 Parish:
Lewisham

Address:
20 Manor Lane Lee County:
London

Brain-Harry Sidney age 32
Brain-Florence Sarah age 35
Children
Harry Charles 12, Alfred Reginald 10, Lilian Rosina 8, Annie Irene 6, Winifred Blanche 3 & Florence Rachel 1.
y.o.b. 1898.1901,1903,1904,1908 & 1910.
In 1899 Rose Lilian died at 4 months, 1905 Leslie Frank died at 2 months and 1907 Arthur Percy Sidney died at 4 months.
Hope this helps,
Thank you.