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ok thanks very much for all that Sylvia.
Francesca

actually, Alfred doesn't even appear on the actual baptism record ............ the transcriber added him to the transcribed record! So that is an error.


Possibly because he is named as the father of Agnes in the record of her baptism.

Both girls were baptised on the same day, and the records are one above the other ...... Agnes first, then Louisa


The vicar has made it very clear that Louisa had been "received into Church" ...... a statement that I have not seen before, but may be related to the fact that Louisa was 4 years old, and children were usually baptised well before that age.


It is also made clear that Mary Brocksopp was a Spinster ....... interestingly, this was written in the Occupation of parent column.



all of which I did put in the posting above!




sylvia

ok jax thanks.

I only posted the 1881 in Derbyshire to show the baptism given above it was incorrect

I think sylvia did say Louisa was born before they married and Alfred has been crossed out on the actual baptism record

Dont understand why she is calling herself mary brocksop for louisa's baptism and churchman for agnes. And why alfred brocksop?

OK thanks. Yes Sylvia martha ann palmer was his first wife. Think the mary in 1881 census in derbysire must be different one ,she was in halifax in 1881.
Thanks for looking for me everyone.
Francesca

From ancestry West Yorkshire Baptisms, it looks as though Louisa was Mary's child, born in 1884, before her marriage to Alfred.

West Yorkshire, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Louisa Brocksopp

Name: Louisa Brocksopp
Birth Date: 6 May 1884
Parish: Southowram, St Anne in The Grove
Baptism Date: 5 Sep 1888
Father's Name: Alfred Brocksopp <<<<< but this name is NOT on the actual certificate
Mother's Name: Mary Brocksopp


from image:-

Received into Church 5 Sep 1888
Address:- The Birks
Occupation:- Spinster


The entry immediately above this one is:-

West Yorkshire, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Agnes Mary Churchman

Name: Agnes Mary Churchman
Birth Date: 25 Feb 1887
Parish: Southowram, St Anne in The Grove
Baptism Date: 5 Sep 1888
Father's Name: Alfred Churchman
Mother's Name: Mary Churchman

from image:-

Address"- The Birks
Father's occupation:- Labman



Alfred Churchman was a Widower when he married Mary, and there are 2 other children shown as baptised in West Yorkshire

West Yorkshire, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Elizabeth Ann Churchman

Name: Elizabeth Ann Churchman
Birth Date: abt 1877
Parish: Rastrick
Baptism Date: 17 Jun 1877
Father's Name: Alfred Churchman
Mother's Name: Martha Ann Churchman


Name: Harriet Ann Churchman
Birth Date: abt 1881
Parish: Southowram, St Anne in The Grove
Baptism Date: 28 Aug 1881
Father's Name: Alfred Churchman
Mother's Name: Martha Ann Churchman



I wonder if this is Alfred's first marriage?

record title: England Marriages, 1538–1973

groom's name:Afred Churchman
bride's name:Martha Ann Palmer
marriage date:10 Feb 1872
marriage place:Ashill, Norfolk, England
groom's father's name: Isaac Churchman
bride's father's name:Isrel Palmer
indexing project (batch) number: I03979-8
system origin:England-EASy
source film number:1596157source film number:1596157




sylvia

1871

Name: Mary Jane Brocksop
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Female
Where born: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
Civil parish: Chesterfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Trinity
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Chesterfield
Sub-registration district: Eckington
ED, institution, or vessel: Poor Law Union Workhouse
Household schedule number: 1
Piece: 3617
Folio: 80
Page Number: 5

re above baptism

Marriages Sep 1864 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brocksopp George Chesterfield 7b 763
Hopkinson Elizabeth Chesterfield 7B 763


1881 census - household transcription
Person: BROCKSOPP, Elizabeth
Address: Pilsley Lane, Pilsley


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BROCKSOPP, George Head Married M 80 1801 Farmer Of 17 1/2 Acres Of Land
North Wingfield
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Elizabeth E Wife Married F 80 1801
Ashover
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, George Head Married M 41 1840 Farm Lab
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Elizabeth Wife Married F 37 1844
Tibshelf
Derbyshire VIEW
>>>>>BROCKSOPP, Mary H Daughter Single F 16 1865 Dom Serv
Tibshelf
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Ann Daughter Single F 13 1868 Seamstress
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, William Son Single M 10 1871 Scholar
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Jane Daughter Single F 8 1873 Scholar
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Agnes Daughter Single F 4 1877
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, George Son Single M 3 1878
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW
BROCKSOPP, Herman Son Single M 1 1880
Pilsley
Derbyshire VIEW

Possible, seeing as no father on marriage cert


MARY BROCKSOPP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 28 AUG 1864 North Wingfield, Derby, England

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Mother: ELIZABETH HOPKINSON BROCKSOPP

Thanks for that information. dont know why the genaologist didnt have her on 1901 census,she is clearly there.No Luty isnt a name I have heard of.
Francesca

1911
CHURCHMAN, Mary Head Mother Widow F 46 1865 Worsted Winder Chesterfield Derbyshire VIEW
CHURCHMAN, Clarice Daughter F 21 1890 Worsted Rover Halifax Yorkshire VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
26408 Reference:
RG14PN26408 RG78PN1525 RD496 SD2 ED9 SN56

Registration District:
Halifax Sub District:
Elland Enumeration District:
9 Parish:
Elland

Address:
11 New St Elland

1901
Name: Mary Churchman
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England

Civil parish: Southowram
Ecclesiastical parish: Southowram St Anne
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Halifax
Sub-registration district: Southowram
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 4
Piece: 4118
Folio: 165
Page Number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Churchman 42
Louisa Churchman 16
Clarice Churchman 11

OK thanks

Just for info

Name: Mary Jane Brocksopp
Birth Year: abt 1861
Age: 24
Marriage or Bann Date: 23 Mar 1885
Parish: Elland, St Mary
Spouse's Name: Alfred Churchman
Spouse's Father's Name: Isaac Churchman


Alfred is34, labourer, widower

No father named for Mary

Does the surname of Luty mean anything as they are the witnesses

No ,I found the marriage on genealogist website.

Do you have the marriage cert

Looking for baptism of Mary Jane Brocksopp.According to 1881 census ,she was born abt 1862 in whittington Derbyshire. We know she was living in the workhouse in derbyshire as a child.We found a record for this ,but lost it,so no idea which workhouse.By 1881 she had moved to Halifax west yorkshire and was employed as a domestic servant aged 19. In 1885 she married Alfred Churchman in Halifax.Cant find any census record for 1871 or 1901.
Thanks
Francesca