Find Ancestors

Thank you everyone for your kind help.

Angela

I found this household in 1901 in Bethnal Green ... very possibly the parents of the infant Alice who died in Bethnal Green in 1905

Charles E Guynn 35 Gwynn walking stick maker born Clerkenwell
Alice Guynn 30
George H Guynn 2
May A Guynn 3/12

in 1881 he is an Industrial School Boy in Dartford

Births Mar 1867
Gwynn Charles Edward Clerkenwell 1b 665

... of course I am thinking he could be a brother of the 1911 James Gwynn Sr ...

in 1871 in St Giles in the Fields ?

Charles Guynn 25 surname has been corrected by an Ancestry user 2010 ... gun smith
Elizabeth Guynn 24
Elizabeth Guynn 4
Charles Guynn 2
Charles Curno 13

but no sign of a brother James ...

... but 1871 in St Giles in the Fields

James Guynn 37 Gwynn ostrich feather boa? manufacturer
Emma Guynn 35
Rose Guynn 10
James Guynn 6 born St Andrews Holborn
Rute Guynn 2 Kate

Deaths Dec 1877
GWYNN James 44 St. Giles 1b 395

cannot find births of those children under any spelling or a marriage for the parents

were they not married and Emma left and married under her assumed name ?

Marriages Sep 1874
Alderton John William Bethnal Green 1c 690
GUYNN Emma Bethnal Green 1c 690
Huderson Thomas James Bethnal Green 1c 690 no such name ... Henderson ?
Taylor Jane Bethnal Green 1c 690

I can't find her or the children in 1881

what I'm wondering ... if the 1911 James Gwynn Sr's parents were not married and his surname was his mother's ... he might have married under that surname although he used Gwynn ...

here is the couple in 1861 in St Pancras

James Gwynn 26 ostrich feather mf
Emma Gwynn 24
James S Gwynn 9 MO born Bloomsbury died 1921 St Pancras

... not making a lot of sense ...

no birth to match that child

could be a marriage and just our luck ... two Emmas ...

Marriages Sep 1859
Copplestone Matthews St James 1a 645
Gwynn James St James 1a 645
Lartham Emma Maria St James 1a 645
Winstanley Emma Matilda St. James 1a 645

omg I just looked at the Q3 1860 image looking for this entry

Births Sep 1860
GRIN*AM Rose Pancras 1b 44

which is not on the page for Grin* so I tried the page for Gwy*

and look what ... in Q3 1861 ...

Gwynn James Samuel Holborn 1b 461

grrrrr transcribed as James Samuel Gwyn[N?] [4_]61

but the James Gwynn in the household in 1871 clearly says age 6


now oh my, 1881

Name: James Gurford [James Gwynn]
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851[1860]
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth Gurford
Gender: Male
Where born: London, London, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Islington

James Gurford 30 cabman
Elizabeth Gurford 19
James Gurford 7 mo

it is purely a mistranscription for the name and age, but the age says 20, so does the Ancestry user know something ?

here they are in 1891 in Islington

James Guynn 32 cab driver again it says Gwynn
Elizabeth Guynn 28
James Guynn 10
Elizabeth Guynn 8
Maud Guynn 6
Kate Guynn 4
William Guynn 2
Annie Guynn 2/12

and in 1901 in Islington

James Gwynn 41 hackney carriage driver
Elizth Gwynn 38
James Gwynn 20
Elizth Gwynn 18
Maud Gwynn 16
Kate Gwynn 40 14 not 40
Willie Gwynn 12
Annie Gwynn 10
John Gwynn 8
Ethel Gwynn 4


how is it that what seems the same couple have

son James Samuel 1860 in the 1861 census who goes on to have a family but is not in the 1871 census

son James abt 1865 in the 1871 census who can't be found after that but looks like the 1911 James Gwynn Sr

? they can't be the same person because

James 1860 and wife 'Elsibeth', daugher Ethel, etc., are in the 1911 census


so I am thinking that the 1859 James + Emma marriage with the James Samuel son is one couple

and the James and Emma in the 1871 census with son James c1865 is another couple

- edit - no that is nonsense, James was an ostrich feather manufacturer in both censuses !

- so can't be what I said next : 'and that couple was not married and that son James is our 1911 James Gwynn Sr and was registered under another surname'


now if we go back to

1871 in St Giles in the Fields ?

Charles Guynn 25 surname has been corrected by an Ancestry user 2010 ... gun smith
Elizabeth Guynn 24 possibly Eliza Curno 1845 St Giles Middlesex
Elizabeth Guynn 4
Charles Guynn 2
Charles Curno 13 ... wife's brother

Curno .......... ( to clarify because of this typeface it is CURNO )

1901

Name: James Curro [James Curno]
Age: 38
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Kate Curro
Gender: Male
Where born: Limehouse, London, England

Civil parish: Rotherhithe

James Curro 38 blacksmith
Kate Curro 28 born Ware ... her name is corrected by a different person

the Ancestry user says

Marriages Dec 1897
Albany Kate Ware 3a 798
Curno James Ware 3a 798


but in 1911 that Kate is in Ware with three children but no James ... and that James has not died ... and she living with a Thomas Chapman aged 36 ...


I think this is our solution to the 1911 James Gwynn Jr


he was a son of Elizabeth Curno who seems not to have married Charles Gwynn but to have had children with him after the birth of James ... under whatever name ...

and he ended up in the household of James and Emma Gwynn in the 1871 census, who must be related to Charles Gwynn Sr somehow

- edit - the above does not really make sense ... I think the James son of James and Emma in 1861 and 1871 just has to be the same one in spite of the age 6 in 1871 ...


this is all only useful if the 1911 James Gwynn Jr is our James ... which I think he is

given the age of the James Gwynn Sr whose death I posted earlier

I wonder ...

Births Mar 1857 - died 1870 Whitechapel
Curno James Stepney 1c 590

Births Mar 1860 - no death
CURNO James Stepney 1c 529
- edit - no he seems to be with parents Thomas and Jane in Limehouse in 1861 and 1871

2 people have the 1860 James Curno in their trees here at genesreunited, one of whom is the person who corrected the name at Ancestry


I have very much not got this sorted out in my head yet but I am just putting it all here because at least some of it seems to lead somewhere :-)

I wonder whether this isn't the sister's marriage after all

Marriages Dec 1919
Gwynn Kate White Bethnal G. 1c 280
White George Gwynn Bethnal G, 1c 280

( would be aged 16 )

and this is her death

Name: Kate White
Birth Date: 1 Jun 1903
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1970
Age at Death: 67
Registration district: Poplar
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 1446

children ...

Kate 1920 Whitechapel
George 1921 Bethnal Green
John J 1922 Bethnal Green
Walter H 1926 Bethnal Green

and also there is no other marriage to account for these births ...

Doreen 1927 Leeds
Albert 1930 Leeds

and so I had it backwards and this could be the remarriage of Kate Gwynn Sr

Marriages Jun 1922
GWYNN Kate Poddon Bethnal G 1c 365
PADDON Charles Gwynn Bethnal G. 1c 365

deaths ?

Kate Paddon abt 1876 Jan-Feb-Mar 1963 Sittingbourne Kent
Kate Paddon abt 1878 Jan-Feb-Mar 1940 Surrey North Eastern Surrey
Kate Paddon 1880 Jul-Aug-Sep 1971 Wandsworth Greater London

Charles Paddon abt 1869 Apr-May-Jun 1942 Bethnal Green London

Births Sep 1868
PADDON Charles Pancras 1b 109


finding a descendant of Kate sister of the 1911 James could be very helpful ...


if the death in Chatham is the 1911 James Gwynn Jr ...

there is a James Gwynn marriage in Chatham in 1979 ...

the wife in that marriage seems to have been iving in Rochester in 2002 ( on the electoral roll in a household with several unrelated names ) ... she was previously married, 1936 Wandsworth ... probably had a child 1929 before marriage ( that child may have been adopted as I find no further trace of her )

there are children of her first marriage born 1933 to 1946 in Greenwich, Battersea, Lambeth, Chatham

I searched trees here at genesreunited and one person in particular has all 5 of those children in their family tree

if this theory is correct those children are the stepchildren of the 1911 James Gwynn Jr son of James and Kate ... the children of his second wife ( who may still be living so I am not naming her although I would think she is deceased since 2002 )


I would strongly recommend contacting the person at this website who has those children in their tree, as that person seems to be descended from one of that James Gwynn's stepchildren and we could expect they would have knowledge of that James Gwynn


if you need help identifying them I can send you the information privately

this seems to make it all the more likely that this is your James Gwynn as there are records that fit with him having been estranged from Martha

so my guesses for that family were good ones :-)

I do think the chances that this is the family are very good

I think it is important to get the birth certificate for that James Gwynn as he is confirmed to be by Potty's baptism record

and that is also the James Gwynn who died in 1994 in Chatham certainly so it could be worthwhile to get that death certificate to see who was the informant

that James Gwynn would also have been 20 in April 1921

I think the chances that this is -not- the family are very slim !


Angela if your grandmother remarried what does her marriage certificate say, did she say widowed, divorced ... ? did she remarry under the name Manley or Gwynn ?

it would be so helpful if you would give all relevant information

There are these two baptisms on Ancestry:

James Gwynn 17 Jun 1901 James Gwynn,
Kate Gwynn Stepney St Augustine Tower Hamlets
Address 41 Commercial Road, occupation: Wine merchant's cellar man (the occupation given for Kate in 1911 should be for James)

Minnie Gwynn 27 Jul 1900 James Gwynn,
Kate Gwynn Stepney St Augustine Tower Hamlets
Address 41 Commercial Road, occupation Labourer

and this death:
Deaths Sep 1900
Gwynn Minnie 0 Stepney 1c 269

James Gwynn is age 20 and Martha is aged 17 on the marriage certificate.

You are right Martha's parents were Alfred & Charlotte Manley.

As I said all children were put into a home after 5 years of marriage. None of them know any details. My grandmother remarried and had a following 8 children. All the people that could possibly help me are deceased. The people that are remaining are unable to help. Information lost by time.

I wonder whether this could be a possibility ... at Freebmd there is an error in the transcription

Name: David James Gwyn
Event: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Feb 1887
[ edited out because that marriage is 1887 not 1897 ... and had ruled them out anyway ]



if James and Kate in 1911 were not married it seems odd to say 14 years, when the eldest child was much younger, but perhaps they had been together that long and it was an older child who died.


these are the children who died in Bethnal Green 1893-1911 with surname Gwyn*

Deaths Jun 1897
Gwynn Joseph Walker 0 Bethnal G. 1c 122 ... birth 1896

Deaths Mar 1900
Gwynn James 0 Bethnal G. 1c 177 ... birth 1900
Gwynn Maud Isabella 4 Bethnal G. 1c 185 ... birth 1895

Deaths Mar 1905
Gwynn Alice 0 Bethnel G 1c 133 ... birth 1905

Deaths Mar 1911
Gwynn Henry C 1 Bethnal G. 1c 124 ... birth 1909


none of them overlaps the 1901 census unfortunately

my own guess would be James 1901 ... they seemed to want to have children named after themselves ( or possibly their own parents )


it is just so striking that the children of your James were Florence, Kate, James & Alfred.

who were Martha Manley's parents ?

I don't find her in 1911 ... the one in Lambeth is a different person

ah here she is

MANLY MARTHA 1904 7 St Olave (Bermondsey) London

father Alfred, mother Charlotte ... my theory was almost correct, that all four children were named for their grandparents :-)

Florence was the eldest child, then James, Kate and Alfred in that order. Did the name Florence have any significance that you know ?

but still given one child named for Martha's father, thinking that two were named for James's parents seems reasonable


the unanswered questions are still

James Gwynn's age on his marriage certificate to Martha Manley

when/where James Gwynn died or did he disappear

this is not him? there is no matching birth registration ( only Q1 and Q3 1901 )

Name: James Gwynn
Birth Date: 1 Jun 1901
Date of Registration: Jan 1994
Age at Death: 92
Registration district: Chatham
Inferred County: Kent
Register number: C23A
District and Subdistrict: 5611C
Entry number: 15

my strong guess would be that this is the 1911 James

Births Sep 1901
Gwynn James Mile End 1c 409

and this is his sister

Births Sep 1903
Gwynn Katie Mile End 1c 417

in which case this could be the missing child

Births Sep 1900
Gwynn Minnie Mile End 1c 427
Deaths Sep 1900
Gwynn Minnie 0 Stepney 1c 269

but there is also this birth and death

Births Mar 1905
Gwynn Caroline Mile End 1c 460
Deaths Mar 1905
Gwynn Caroline 0 Whitechapel 1c 196

but they are all so much in the right area to belong to that couple ...

If he was a serving soldier in 1921 then his records will not be online and only available to the person in question or to Next of kin

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html

found this
Brigade of Guards
The regiments of Foot Guards have traditionally retained their own records. British Army Records from the early nineteenth century to the present date are held by the appropriate regimental Headquarters. Postal inquiries only should be addressed to :

Regimental Headquarters
Grenadier/Coldstream/Scots/Irish/Welsh Guards
Wellington Barracks


from http://www.armymuseums.org.uk/bothb.htm

And no he does not have to be the Welsh to be in the Welsh Guards



Roy

Hi
My research for James Gwynn has been from FreeBMD, Ancestry & Find My Past. I went through all of the Military records on Ancestry when I had a subscription. I sent messages to two people that I found on Ancestry who I thought James Gwynn was connected to from Wales. Both replies came back as not a match. I also checked out the address from his marriage certificate, turns out he wasn't a voter. On his marriage certificate his father is also James Gwynn, deceased and shows no occupation. The marriage was in the presence of Samuel Richard Stevens & Alice Stevens.

The children from that marriage were Florence, Kate, James & Alfred.
Kate died the same year that she was born (Cot death), James died 1942 (Army), Florence & Alfred are alive but know nothing of their fathers parentage.

The 1911 Census that could possibly be his family shows this information:

James Gwynn - Head - age 46 - Married 14 years – Crane man - Bethnal Green, London, British

Kate Gwynn - Wife- age 34 - Married 14 years - Wine Merchant - Bethnal Green, London, British ( 3 children born alive , 2 Living, 1 deceased)

Kate Gwynn - Daughter - age 7 - School - Bethnal Green, London, British

James Gwynn - Son - age 9 - School - Bethnal Green, London, British

(I also could not locate Kate & James Gwynn from Bethnal Green, marriage record)

I have spent time looking through alll Gwynn marriages found on Ancestry from the London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 (Nothing matches to the deatail I have.)

I hope I have answered all questions asked.

Thank you for your kind help.

Angela

One of James and Martha's children was Kate ... you noticed ?
born and died in 1925 in Bethnal Green


I would think this is the 1911 James's sister Kate's marriage

Marriages Jun 1922
GWYNN Kate Poddon Bethnal G 1c 365
PADDON Charles Gwynn Bethnal G. 1c 365

no children under either spelling of the surnaame


although the age is off I wonder whether this is the father James's death

Deaths Dec 1916 = dob c1858
Gwynn James 58 Bethnal G. 1c 162

possibly one of these

Births Mar 1857
Gwynn James St Luke 1b 575
Births Sep 1858
Gwynn James Medway 2a 308


followed by the mother remarrying ?

Marriages Dec 1919
Gwynn Kate White Bethnal G. 1c 280
White George Gwynn Bethnal G, 1c 280
... no, there are White-Gwynn births beginning in 1920 ...


I'm wondering whether James and Kate in the 1911 were not married and the children's births were not registered as Gwynn, whether or not James was their father ......

so much for that theory

Births Mar 1900
Gwynn James Bethnal G. 1c 224
Deaths Mar 1900
Gwynn James 0 Bethnal G. 1c 177


you need the details of the 1911 census for James and Kate and children which I can't access

if you have them from the search you did before it would be nice if you would offer them here as there would then be something to search for

the family are all shown in 1911 as born in Bethnal Green ( using that as a search term )

but I am not having any luck finding a marriage for the parents or births of the children or finding them in 1901 or James Sr in an earlier census

The Welsh Guards museum is in Brecon and I would imagine that is where their records are kept

Ancestry has

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1219
British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1262
British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920

have you checked there ?


... I searched quickly and see nothing to match your info ...



what is his father's occupation on the marriage certificate ?

and again, please ... his age ?

no, my grandfather was in the Worcesters and had no connection :-)

... but he could have been Welsh and born outside Wales of course

did you do the search at freebmd ?

the one other James Gwynn, no middle name, born in that period ( assuming his age on the marriage certificate was correct ... you have still not said what it was ? ) was born in Wales

I do not find a marriage for a James Gwynn to a Kate ( Katherine, Catherine, Kathleen ... ) but there is this possibility

Marriages Sep 1902
Bradley William Henry Marylebone 1a 1460
? Davies Kate Marylebone 1a 1460
Figgis Maud Mary Marylebone 1a 1460
? Gwynne James Marylebone 1a 1460

did you see the one from Wales in the 1911 as well?

GWYNN JAMES 1900 11 Abergavenny Monmouthshire

... edit - his father is Thomas seen in the 1901 census in Blaenavon, Monmouthshire

in 1901 there are also
James Gwynne in Aberdare born c1900 with father John
James C Gwynn in Pontlottyn, Glamorgan born c1900 with father William
James Gwynn in Bermondsey born c1898 probably with unmarried mother Jane


you have no idea of when your James died ?

at this point the one born and living in Bethnal Green certainly seems the obvious and almost only choice

one thing to remember is that the father's name James could be fictitious if his parents were not married

Before The London Family History Centre closed for referb, I viewed that same Census. I just don't know if it's the correct one for him.

Do you have to be Welsh to be in the Welsh Guards?

Yes you have found my grandmothers details. I have managed to locate her family and go way back.

I've located my grandmothers first born and want to try and find out more about her first husband. My grandmother left him after 5 years of marriage. Her children went to homes.

This is the household of the Bethnal Green one in 1911

http://www.1911census.co.uk/search/tnaform.aspx

( you can do both the freebmd births search and this census search free of charge )

GWYNN JAMES 1865 46 Bethnal Green London
GWYNN KATE 1877 34 Bethnal Green London
GWYNN JAMES 1902 9 Bethnal Green London
GWYNN KATE 1904 7 Bethnal Green London

I don't pay for access there so I can't see the parents' places of birth or the father's occupation ... someone with access will see your post in the morning if not before and provide details

his age on the marriage certificate?

was she born 1904 St Olave?

My Grandmother Martha Elizabeth Manley married James Gwynn on 21 Apr 1921 at St Matthias, Bethnal Green. Fathers of the Groom also James Gwynn. No middle names mentioned. Marriage can be found on Ancestry.

I also have birth certificate of their first child, still has no middle name. James Gwynn is now a Baker in 1922.

I also thought he might be from London.. I think Army records might shed some light, just don't know where to start.

Marriages Jun 1921
Gwynn James Manley Bethnal G. 1c 255
Masley Martha E Gwynn Bethnal G. 1c 255

( her name seems to be spelled wrong / mistranscribed on his record )

perhaps this is the most likely of the five

Births Mar 1900
Gwynn James Bethnal G. 1c 224

he would probably have been 21 at the time of that marriage