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Hello. I'd be really grateful for any help in finding out more information on Ernest Smith and/or his family. He was a bachelor and on 6 June 1933 he married Charlotte Pitcher at All Saints Church Upper Norwood, Croydon. He was aged 65 so born c. 1868, a chef by profession and his father was William Cornwall Smith (builder) . He must have died between June 1933 and February 1937 as Charlotte, a widow, remarried in Bromley in February 1937. There are 2 possible records of deaths - 1) Ernest Smith who died on 26 July 1936 in Croydon aged 70, an upholsterer and whose widow was M Smith so I have discounted that record. 2) Ernest Smith who died 24 January 1936 in Bromley. His widow was C (Charlotte?) Smith so it could have been him but he was 66 and a draper's packer.

Regarding Ernest's father William Cornwall Smith I have found information (from a GR member via the Search Records) on a William Cornwell Smith a joiner and he had a son Ernest. However, that Ernest (b. 1868) was not a trained chef and not a bachelor and died in 1943.

I just don't know where to turn to next as I would love to find out more about Ernest Smith as he is a link to my grandmother Charlotte Pitcher of whom I know little. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Perhaps he wasn't a bachelor or a Chef. At 65 years of age he was possibly married prior to marrying Charlotte.

Certificates are our best source of information but they are only as good as the answers given to the questions asked and the answers were not always the truth.

My grandmother had an illegitiimate daughter prior to her marriage to my grandfather. Upon the daughter's marriage my grandmother reverted to her maiden name (as a witness) and my grandfather (not her father) was named as her father with my grandmother's maiden surname. So it would appear information given was not checked.

You may be right - I was just going by the marriage certificate information. Perhaps I'm too trusting!

Sandra, forgive me if I am getting this wrong, but is it actually Charlotte you are interested in rather than Ernest?
If you haven't done so already maybe you could tell us what you are looking for.
In passing, how old was she when they married? I am asuming this was a later marriage for her too?
Jan

Just for info! In case it proves to be useful. But this suggests your grandmother wasn't married before?

Marriages Jun 1933
Pitcher Charlotte A J Smith Croydon 2a 842
Smith Ernest Pitcher Croydon 2a 842

Births Jun 1882 (>99%)
Pitcher Charlotte Amelia J Stoke D. 5b 359

Jan

Is this her birth Sandra? It's the only Charlotte A J Pitcher birth I can find and I can't find a marriage of a Pitcher to a Charlotte A J -

Births Jun 1882
Pitcher Charlotte Amelia J Stoke D. 5b 359

1911

GUILLE, John Denys De Cartnet Son M 11 1900 School Guernsey VIEW
OWEN, Ann Jane Head Single F 54 1857 Lady Help Liverpool VIEW
ATWILL, Eveline Jane Single F 18 1893 Domestic Servant St Budeaux Devon VIEW
PITCHER, Charlotte Amelia Jane Single F 29 1882 Domestic Servant Stoke Devon VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
12927 Reference:
RG14PN12927 RG78PN746 RD275 SD2 ED12 SN45

Registration District:
Plympton St Mary Sub District:
Plympton Enumeration District:
12 Parish:
Tamerton Foliott

Address:
Powisland Crown Hill Devon County:
Devonshire

The Ernest Smith you mention as dying in 1943 was actually Ernest C Smith. It's always a good idea to mention any other initials Sandra, especially when you are researching the name Smith.

?

Deaths Sep 1936 (>99%)
Smith Ernest 70 Croydon 2a 533

I'm interested in both of them but initially mainly in Ernest as he's the 1st link I have to Charlotte after she had given birth illegitimately to my father in 1913. She had to give him up for adoption and from 1913 until 1933 I had no knowledge of her until I discovered she married Ernest in 1933. She was a spinster aged 50 when she married Ernest. I thought if I could find Ernest's family or descendants I could work from death certificates as they have often been my large source of information when researching other ancestors and perhaps somewhere along the line I could find out more about her from Ernest Smith's family descendants hence my interest in Ernest.

To be honest, if they were married such a short time the family might not know much. She is very easy to research 1911 and before though, lucky you!

What do you think about above death as a possible?

1901 England Census

Name: Charlotte A J Pitcher
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Devonport, Devon, England

Civil parish: Devonport
Ecclesiastical parish: Stoke Damerel St Andrew
Town: Devonport
County/Island: Devon


Registration district: Devonport
Sub-registration district: St Aubyn

1891 England Census

Name: Charlotte A J Richer
[Charlotte A J Pilcher]
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: George Robert Richer
Mother's name: Bessie Richer
Gender: Female
Where born: Devonport, Devon, England

Civil parish: Stoke Damerel
Ecclesiastical parish: St Stephen
Town: Devonport
County/Island: Devon

Registration district: Stoke Damerel
Sub-registration district: St Aubyn

George Robert Richer 42
Bessie Richer 42
Bessie Richer 10
Charlotte A J Richer 9
Lilian Richer 9

Brummiejan - Yes, Charlotte Amelia Jane Pitcher was definitely born June 1882 and her first marriage was in June 1933 to Ernest Smith. The only reason I discounted the Ernest Smith who died on 26 July 1936 was that he was 70 (3 years older than " my" Ernest) and that his widow was M Smith.

Christine2 - I understand about the importance of giving all name/initial information but it was just plain Ernest Smith on the censuses I looked at.

I am however beginning to realise that I shouldn't be taking everything at face value.

This Probate 'may' account for the 1936 death which is mentioned above???
In which case it doesn't look like the correct one:

Ernest Smith of 5 Wandle Road Croydon, Surrey died 26th July, 1936
Probate London 25th September to Mary Smith widow.
Effects £290. 6s 5d.


Do you know that he died in the Croydon area?

Dea x

So - I guess you reallly want to know about Charlotte's later life? I am not sure what you already know.
Have you tried looking at the electoral registers for the addresses you have from various certs? Just to see who they were living with. You don't mention witnesses to the marriage, do they offer any clues to Ernest?
The other thing is to look for descendants of her siblings - you never know, someone might know something.
Jan

Did she have any other children do you think? There are several Pitcher/Pitcher births on Freebmd.
Jan

Dea - yes he did die in Croydon but somehow like you I don't think he's the right person as his widow is Mary rather than Charlotte.

Jan - I've exhausted all the information I can glean from Charlotte's second husband's family - I have spoken to them and one was in fact with her when she died in 1952 but they knew absolutely nothing about her prior to her second marriage in 1937. The two witnesses to that 2nd marriage have both died.

Re Charlotte's two sisters - again I've tracked down their descendants with no luck at all. Both, including my great aunt's grandson had absolutely no knowledge of her at all.

The only witnesses to Ernest and Charlotte's marriage that I haven't traced are Harry Cartwright and Clifford Cartwright.

I've sometimes wondered about that - I'll certainly have another look at those births on Freebmd - even though my father was born in Plymouth she may well have moved on from there when he was adopted. Definitely something worth exploring. Thank you for reminding me.

As for Ernest Smith - in view of the fact that there are often discrepancies in records, I am beginning to wonder if the Ernest Smith who died in 1936 in Bromley leaving a widow C Smith could be the one although I had originally discounted him. It may be a coincidence but Charlotte married her second husband in Bromley.