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I somehow missed the second page of this. Thanks for all the info. You two make a good research pair.

I just can't believe how the surname has changed so much over the years. Even from mother to daughter it's so different. I guess, when you can't read or write the spelling is based on the person you're telling it too?

Ellen's age does seem to change (very often). I'll keep looking, but the closer the certificate to her birth date, the less chance I rekon they had of getting her age wrong. That's the system I use anyway until something concrete pops up.

Thanks Maureen and everyone. You got it spot on. I found a tree with Mary M Hale in it and contacted the owner, and he confirmed that Mary M's mother was Ellen HALE nee GRISTLEWHITE!!! She gave birth to Mary before marrying Edward HALE so that solves that mystery.

Thanks so much for your help guys.

Strangely Maureen, that address you posted in 1911 (45 Epsom St), Mary M ALSO lived at this address with her husband Patrick FLYNN and my G Grandmother, Ellen FLYNN. However they have separate census forms.

Thank you so much guys.

Are you there Danny ??? OR are you too busy scoffing that wedding cake ???

Dea Xxx

Maureen - I believe you have the correct family for Edward on 1891 (transcribed as Hall) - 1871 shows Mary with husband Robert, a carter, as mentioned on marriage cert.

And that MUST be Helen on 1861, though I cannot follow the family through just at the moment.

Thanks,

Dea x

I haven't found much more,Dea!

I think Ellen/Helen was fibbing about her age a bit:
Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Baptisms, 1813-1906 about Holen Griselwaith
Name: Holen Griselwaith
Birth Date: abt 1859
Baptism Date: 24 Apr 1859
Parish: West Derby St James
Father's Name: Henry Griselwaith Occ: Roper
Mother's Name: Anna Griselwaith
...............
1861 census transcription details for: 65, Lovat Street, West Derby, Liverpool

RG number: RG09 Piece: 2730 Folio: 19 Page: 30

Reg. District: West Derby Sub District: 6 West Derby
GUSTLEWHITE, Henry Head Married M 24 1837 Rope Maker
West Derby
Lancashire
GUSTLEWHITE, Anna Wife Married F 25 1836
...
Lancashire
GUSTLEWHITE, Helen Daughter F 2 1859
West Derby
Lancashire
GUSTLEWHITE, William Son M 0 (4M) 1861
Liverpool
Lancashire


My eyes are going a little wonky on me. I just can't see them in 1891. I think Edward Hale is down as Edward Hall:

1891 census transcription details for: 61, Bostock Street, Liverpool
RG number: RG12 Piece: 2899 Folio: 79 Page: 10

Reg. District: Liverpool Sub District: St Martin
HALL, Mary Head Widow F 67 1824
Ireland
HALL, Robert Son Single M 33 1858 Genl Labourer
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALL, Edward Son Single M 23 1868 Genl Labourer
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALL, Thomas Son Single M 18 1873 Genl Labourer
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALL, Henry Son Single M 15 1876 Scholar
Liverpool
Lancashire

But not really certain.

Maureen

Just before I go:


Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Marriages and Banns, 1813-1921
about Ellen Gritwaite Name: Ellen Gritwaite
Birth Year: abt 1863
Age: 28
Marriage Date: 18 Oct 1891
Parish: Liverpool All Saints
Spouse's Name: Edward Hale - Labr. age 23
Father's Name: Henry Gritwaite - Rope maker
Spouse Father's Name: Robert Hale - Carter

her address - Elias St
His address - Bostock St.

Witnesses:
R. Collins + Mary A Collins.
..................

OOhh Maureen - it is looking better and better!

Shame I have to dash off - will catch up later!

Dea x

Well done Maureen - I think we have them now !!!

Got to pick grand-daughter up from school but will have another look later


Dea x <3

?????
Marriages Dec 1891
Gritwaite Ellen Liverpool 8b 111
Hale Edward Liverpool 8b 111
..................
1901 census transcription details for: 10, Ascot Street, Liverpool

RG number: RG13 Piece: 3408 Folio: 109 Page: 50

Reg. District: Liverpool Sub District: St Martin
Parish: Liverpool Enum. District: 10
Ecclesiastical District: St James the Less City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 10, Ascot Street, Liverpool
County: Lancashire
HALE, Edward Head Married M 33 1868 Coal Porter
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Ellen Wife Married F 34 1867
Liverpool
Lancashire
>>>HALE, Mary M Daughter F 13 1888
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Daniel Son M 11 1890
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Frances Daughter F 8 1893
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Mary H Daughter F 5 1896
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Elizabeth Daughter F 3 1898
Liverpool
Lancashire
HALE, Ellen Daughter F 1 1900
Liverpool
Lancashire


Maureen

Ahh - I see the dob was from her death reg?

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Mary Margaret Slater Name: Mary Margaret Slater
Birth Date: 8 Jun 1890
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1975
Age at Death: 85
Registration district: Liverpool
Inferred County: Merseyside
Volume: 36
Page: 1072

Was her new husband a little younger than her perhaps?

Dea x

OR - It could be this one (using her middle name)?

1891 England Census
about Margt Gristlewaite Name: Margt Gristlewaite
[Margt Grisenthwaite]
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1888
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Henry Gristlewaite
Mother's Name: Margt Gristlewaite
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: West Derby
Ecclesiastical parish: Stanley St Ann
County/Island: Lancashire

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: West Derby (Rural)
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2999
Folio: 139
Page Number: 35
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Gristlewaite 26 Genr. labr.
Margt Gristlewaite 23
Ann Gristlewaite 6
James Gristlewaite 4
Margt Gristlewaite 3
Phoebe Gristlewaite 1

at 35 Swan St.

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 2999; Folio 139; Page 35; GSU roll: 6098109.



Dea x

Liverpool, Lancashire, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Maria Margarita Grissenthwaite Name: Maria Margarita Grissenthwaite
Birth Date: 8 Jun 1887
Baptism Date: 23 Jun 1887
Parish: St Francis de Sales
Mother's Name: Helenae Grissenthwaite

Looks like the mother was unmarried?

Dea x

EDIT - I have just noticed that she has the correct date of birth i.e. 8th June, though 3 years ealier than the one you posted.

I think this MUST be her. ************

Where did you get her birth date from Danny?

Dea x

shows a few variations of the name

http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3ddq1947/grisgene/wills.html

Could this be her birth??

Births Sep 1887
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GRITWAITE Mary Margaret W. Derby 8b 427

The 1911 census gives her year of birth as 1887?

Dea x

Found this

My Reference Number: M142a
Name: MARY MARGARET GRISTLEWHITE
District: LIVERPOOL
Volume: 8b
Page: 138
Quarter: JFM
Year: 1910
New in March 2007
Note: Jean Watson provided the copy of this Certificate.
File Name: M142a.jpg Size: 881 KB JPEG Image.
Send your request for a copy of this Certificate to this address, (see condition at top of page)


http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3ddq1947/grisgene/marriages.html

1911 - for reference:

FLYNN, Patrick Head Married M 29 1882 Dock Labourer Liverpool Lancs
FLYNN, Mary Margaret Wife Married 1 years F 24 1887 Liverpool Lancs
FLYNN, Ellen Daughter Single F 0 1911 Liverpool Lancs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG14 Piece:
22123 Reference:
RG14PN22123 RG78PN1311 RD453 SD1 ED7 SN344

Registration District:
Liverpool Sub District:
Scotland Enumeration District:
7 Parish:
Liverpool

Address:
45 Epsom St Liverpool County:
Lancashire


Dea x

Can you post the 1911 census you have for her and Patrick please .

Just posting this for now.
The only Mary Margaret born Liverpool in June Quarter 1890
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1890
Nurse Mary Margaret - W. Derby 8b 321


EDIT :

NO

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1899
Nurse Mary - 9 - W. Derby 8b 347

********************************************************
*******************NEW INFO*************************
********************************************************

Hi all. I'd like to ask again for assistance as I have found out new information which could help.

A death certificate I received from Mary Margaret's daughter states Mary's maiden name as being HALE.

So here is what we know, which makes this confusing.

Name: Mary Margaret HALE (??)
Born: 8 Jun 1890, Liverpool
Married: Patrick FLYNN in 1910 (maiden name listed as GRISTLEWHITE)
Children: James FLYNN (1917) and Veronica FLYNN (1914) (maiden name listed as GRISTLEWHITE) other children were born before maiden name registration
No birth for GRISTLEWHITE
Possible birth for Mary HALE in 1890, and possible baptism in Jul 1890 parents being Mary and George.

Would appreciate any assistance at all.
Thanks.

Just to prove that there were people of that name, or similar in and around Liverpool:

Burial: 8 Feb 1827 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Gresenwhite -
Age: 34 Years
Abode: Drury Lane
Buried by: Thomas Johnson Curate
Register: Burials 1827 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 2, Entry 986
Source: LDS Film 1068891

Marriage: 8 May 1837 St Cuthbert, Halsall, Lancashire, England
Luke Gregson - (X), Labourer of Halsall
***Isabel Gristlewhite - (X), Spinster of Altcar
Witness: James Lea; Thomas Sumner
Married by Banns by: Richd. Leigh Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 90, Entry 269
Source: LDS Film 1849658

Baptisms: 14 May 1847 St Martin in the Field, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Gristlewaite - Child of John Gristlewaite & Mary
Abode: Oswald St
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: C Wray
Register: Baptisms 1829 - 1850, Page 250, Entry 1997
Source: LDS Film 1656205

Burial: 22 Jan 1864 St Cuthbert, Halsall, Lancashire, England
***Alice Gristlewhite -
Age: 5
Abode: Bickerstaffe
Buried by: A.Vaughan Williams Curate
Register: Burials 1844 - 1872, Page 132, Entry 1082
Source: LDS Film 1849658

Burial: 11 Oct 1876 St Mary the Virgin, Goosnargh, Lancashire, England
Hannah Gristlewaite -
Age: 43
Abode: Patient in Whittingham Asylum
Notes: (181 in col 1)
Buried by: William Shilleto
Register: Burials 1867 - 1900, Page 44, Entry 349
Source: LDS Film 4185568

Baptisms: 28 Jul 1886 St Martin in the Field, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Martha Grestlewhite - Child of Margaret Grestlewhite
Born: 11 Jul 1886
Abode: 23 Bostock St
Baptised by: Wm Chaplin, Incumbent
Register: Baptisms 1876 - 1901, Page 466, Entry 1346
Source: LDS Film 1656205

There were 6 matches for this search! - from Lancs OPC site.

Doesn't help with Mary though...........

Dea x