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Is this the daughter's birth?

Births Dec 1871 (>99%)
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Arthur Agnes Ellen Brighton 2b 221

Possible for Janes Family

1851 England Census
about Jane Jupp
Name: Jane Jupp
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Jupp
Mother's name: Eliza Jupp
Gender: F (Female)
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil parish: Brighthelmstone
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 1r
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Piece: 1645
Folio: 419
Page Number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
James Jupp 31
Eliza Jupp 25
Ellen Jupp 5
Jane Jupp 2
James Gardner 71


Cheers from Sue Busselton Western Australia

1861 England Census
about Jane Jupp
Name: Jane Jupp
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Jupp
Mother's name: Eliza Jupp
Gender: Female
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 102
Piece: 595
Folio: 89
Page Number: 17
Household Members: Name Age
James Jupp 42
Eliza Jupp 36
Eling Jupp 14
Jane Jupp 12
Eliza Jupp 10
James Jupp 7
Susan Jupp 5
Ruth Jupp 2
Mary Jupp 72

1891 for reference.....only

Name: James L Earl
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Helen A Earl
Gender: Male
Where born: Highbury, London, England

Civil parish: St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrew
Town: Rotherhithe
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Waterloo Road First
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 387
Folio: 139
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
James L Earl 28 Occ Haidresser Asst
Helen A Earl 23 b. Brighton
Edith A Earl 9 dau
James L Earl 7 son
Florence M Earl 6 dau
Jane Arthur 44 M I L
Frederick Arthur 18 b. Brighton
Florence J Arthur 10 b. Brighton
George Arthur 8 b. Brighton
Elizabeth A J Arthur 7/12 G/dau (presumably to Jane) b. lambeth
Edward Hill 33
______________________________________________

No sign on freebmd of a marriage for James to Jane's daughter

There is, however.................................

BLACK Mary Hackney 1b 870
Clark George Edwin Hackney 1b 870
EARL James Samuel Hackney 1b 870
THOMAS Emma Rebecca Hackney 1b 870

And the son?

Births Sep 1884 (>99%)
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Earl James Samuel Hackney 1b 589


On the 1891, the second initial for both looks to me more like 'S' than 'L'

I am not 100% sure that this is the correct marriage. I have researched as many combinations of William and Jane and this is the most positive.
I am hoping that there are others out there looking for Arthur/Jupp and I can add this info to the tree.
Cheers Kevin

Births Dec 1890 (>99%)
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Arthur Elizabeth Alice J St. Saviour 1d 63

Please say what info you know to be 100% accurate about this line..............

Do you, for instance, have your grandmother's birth certificate?

Follow the advice about using search trees....the only way to find a link on this site....

I have Elizabeth birth cert and the father is not noted,no surprise for me there as I knew that this was the case.
Elizabeth was Elizabeth Maude on her voyage out here and we all knew her as E M and then her Cert says she is Elizabeth Alice Jane threw me , the birth date is correct and the mothers name is correct that is why I am trying to link a mother to Ellen Agnes.
I have searched other trees and have sent a message to one .
I will wait for a reply.
Cheers Kevin

Apologies, Kevin...........I should have said your grt grandmother's birth cert.........I misread your posting!

So the baby on 1891 was your grandmother?

Name: Elizabeth Alice J Arthur
Year of Registration: 1890
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: St Saviour Southwark
County: London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 63


Which does prove the link......................

I still can't see any sign of the child's mother marrying James Earl............suspect he may have dumped his wife, and taken up with Helen/Ellen

The Earl children are a bit too old to be Ellen's..................

I haven't been able to find a Helen A , married to James Earl, anywhere.
I traced James until the last census and he states he is a hairdresser and disabled.His wife is now Rebecca.In 1901 he is a widower so Helen either died or moved on.I know that Ellen never married until 1918 to John Ward.
Ellen is stated,1901 census, as his housekeeper. Elizabeth was born in London..I am basing this assumption about Jane Jupp on ......

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Jane Jupp
Name: Jane Jupp
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Spouse Name: William Arthur
Spouse Age: 30
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 26 Dec 1870
Parish: Holy Trinity, Brompton Road
County: Middlesex
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Father Name: James Jupp
Spouse Father Name: William Arthur
This is the only lead I have been able to follow for all the William Arthur and Janes that married around that time and were born around the Brighton area.
Cheers

just noticed a one name study for Jupp might be worth


Dr Penelope Christensen
E-mail [email protected]

What does strike me is that in 1891 the oldest child is 9 and Helen is only 23! Is it possible that the child is not Helen's but James from a previous relationship?

EDIT: Just re-read and Flick has already pointed this out

Thats what I thought , Helen is way to young to have a 9 yr old. Second marriage for James???.
Odd also that Helen is not in BDM the rest of the family is able to be found.
The whole Arthur family was a little different to the norm I think, Helen with no birth/marriage file Ellen with a child and no husband and William appears to have left the scene for whatever reason by 1891.
This is what makes a good detective story find the family not just Wally or should I say Willy and Jane
Edit ,Should read BDM for some reason I am seeing an Emoticon instead
Edit 2 Birth, Deaths & Marriages is what the initials should read

I posted the birth record for Agnes Ellen - first reply on here

1881 census

Household:

William ARTHUR Head M Male 40 London, Middlesex, England Hospital Porter
Jane ARTHUR Wife M Female 32 Brighton, Sussex, England Laundress
Agnes E. ARTHUR Daur Female 9 Brighton, Sussex, England Scholar
Frederick W. ARTHUR Son Male 7 Brighton, Sussex, England Scholar
Kate ARTHUR Daur Female 5 Brighton, Sussex, England Scholar
Hilda M.E. ARTHUR Daur Female 3 Brighton, Sussex, England Scholar
Florence J. ARTHUR Daur Female 9 m Brighton, Sussex, England


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Source Information:
Dwelling 31 Islingword Rd
Census Place Brighton, Sussex, England
Family History Library Film 1341255
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1084 / 12
Page Number 17

1871

Name: William Arthur
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Arthur
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil parish: Brighton
Town: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 23
Household schedule number: 72
Piece: 1079
Folio: 48
Page Number: 13
Household Members: Name Age
William Arthur 30
Jane Arthur 22

Thanks for all the replies .
My main concern is to be at least 95% sure of the lineage that I am about to put onto my family history.
It doesn't make it any easier to prove fact from fiction when the mother fails to appear in one census but ,what I think ,is her daughter does.The grand mothers daughter!!! Helen is married to !!! James Earl then disappears also.
I can try the idea that Helen A is actually Ellen A and has stated her name incorrectly to hide the fact that she isn't married to James.
I was hoping that some one else was in the same boat but coming from a different direction and we could exchange info.
The one persons tree that I did get in touch with wasn't sure how Jane Arthur/Jupp got onto her tree.
I will just keep looking.
Cheers Kevin