Find Ancestors

Hi!

Thank you for the feedback. At some point in time I will take a punt at the death reference for Samuel Howse / Howes and keep my fingers crossed that I have the correct Samuel. . I am sure there are many cemeteries in and around Hackney / Shoreditch. So as you say Fanny the death reference and the burial reference are quite possible one of the same.

Also I get your point with regards to Eliza Keyte Nee Howes mother registering her birth and indicating her birth as Northamptonshire. Again it is quite possible that they were visiting the area when Eliza Howes Nee Tatt? went into labour and her daughter birth was then registered in Middlesex when they returned home. I guess if I manage to find the correct birth certificate it may well reveal this.

Back in the day Northamptonshire used to be the hub of the boot and shoe trade in the UK. I am sure the Howes families done a lot of trade back and forth over time.

My theory was based more on sentimental value rather than emotional ties though they could be construed as being the same thing Astra.

Through further research regarding the Howes’s interestingly enough Eliza Keyte nee Howes nephew Samuel William Howes 1883, though born in Hoxton , London, joined the Northamptonshire Regiment of the British Army from 1902 - 1914. His tour of duties included 2 years in South Africa and 5 years in India.

My family and I actually live in Northamptonshire so I could well be digging around for a quite a while. Take care and all the best.

George

I think the point about Eliza's birth is that her mother would know where she was born and Eliza would only know where she was brought up which would account for the change of birth area after she married. Where her birth was registered is another matter. If they were just visiting Northamptonshire when she was born then they could have registered her when they returned to Middlesex. I think your idea that her mother said she was born in Northamptonshire to retain the links to her father's birthplace is based on emotion rather than fact. Unfortunately we may never know.

www.familysearch.org...Its free

This is where the reference is from...No age given

I believe it to be one and the same as your Howse ,,Shoreditch ref is in the DEC Q...and this is burial just a few days after the end of DEC...

Maybe he wanted to be buried in Hackney Cemetery or it was the one local to where he lived,or other family were already buried there or it was the only place for him if he died a pauper?
They are close together arent they?

Now I am in a right pickle!

I have two death references for Samuel Howes / Howse. Out of the two I would pluck for the shoreditch reference as this is where the family were living in 1871.

Do you have an idea of age at death ect for the Samuel who was buried Hackney 04 Jan 1871?

From ...Familysearch...Same spelling


name: Samuel Howse
event type: Burial
burial date: 04 Jan 1871
burial place: Hackney, Middlesex
record set: RG8_0049

99% I would say..

Hi

I was unable to find a death reference for a samuel howes between 1869 and 1871. What I did happen to locate was the followong death ref:

Name: Samuel Howse
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Year of Registration: 1870
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 38
District: Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 137

I was unable to find a birth reference for a samuel howse born c1832?


What is the likely hood of this death reference being that one for Eliza's Keyte Nee Howes c1863 father Samuel Howes C1832.

George

Hello Fanny

I concur with you on those baptism records you posted earlier. I also found for record:

Baptism: Record:
Date: 16th April 1854 at St James, Shoreditch, Hackney. William Howes (Born 13th Dec 1853) parents (Samuel a shoemaker and Eliza)..Abode 17 Paul Square.

Baptism:
Date: 18th Oct 1857 at St James Shoreditch..Sam Howes (Born Nov 9th 1955) abode 5 Dyers Court, Long Alley..Parents Samuel a Shoemaker and Eliza.

I was unable to find a baptism record for Eliza's other siblings James 1868 and Maria 1871.

I am ssumming as their Mother Eliza Howes 1833 is stated as a widow on the 1871 census their father Samuel died between 1869 and the and April 1871? And that as he was possible ill betwen those dates money etc became a little tight?

George

Hi

This is Eliza’s census record for 1881. As you can see the name has been miss transcribed and should be Keyte. It also states that Eliza was born in Islington in 1863 as opposed to the 1871 census which states her as being born Northamptonshire.

1881 census: 101, Tewkesbury Road, Tottenham
KITE, Robert Head Married M 59 1822 Printers Warehouseman Clerkenwell
Middlesex
KITE, Alice Daughter Single F 11 1870 Clerkenwell Middlesex
KITE, Fredk Son Married M 21 1860 Plasterer Clerkenwell Middlesex
KITE, Eliza Sons Wife Married F 18 1863 Islington Middlesex
KITE, Eliza Daughter Single F 1 1880 Shoreditch Middlesex


There is the following bith reference (only one I can find) of an Eliza Howes being born in Islington in 1863.

Name Eliza Howes Year of Registration 1862 Quarter of Registration Jul-Aug-Sep Registration District Islington Registration County London Mother's maiden name Volume Number 1B Volume Page 252

So I am going to request an order for this birth certificate without volume and page numbers with the Fathers name as Samuel Howes with mothers surname Tatt, based on the mariage of Samuel Howes and Eliza Tatt. I am assuming that Eliza’a parents stated her place of birth as Northamptonshire according to the 1871 census as a way of keeping a connection with the possible birth place of her father Samuel. Fingers crossed if it is the correct birth certificate will come back with the information I want to see.

Married at St Philips Church, Bethnal Green on 21st March 1853 between Samuel Howes (21) (a boot and shoe maker) of Litchfield Terrace (Father William Howes a labourer) AND Eliza Tatt aged 19 of Litchfield Terrace (Father John Tatt a labourer). Witnessed by: George Manssto??? & Mary Edwards.


With regards to the birth reference for a Eliza Howes born Northamtonshire:

Name Eliza Howes Year of Registration 1863 Quarter of Registration Jul-Aug-Sep Registration District Hardingstone Registration County Northamptonshire Mother's maiden name Volume Number 3B Volume Page 43

Yes this is probably the wrong birth reference for the Eliza born to Samuel and Eliza. If we apply this birth to the following census records:

1871: New Hackleton, Hackleton
HOWES, George Head M 39 1832 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Georgiana Wife F 37 1834 Wiltshire
HOWES, George Daniel Son M 16 1855 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Alwin Charles Son M 13 1858 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Oliver Leonard Son M 10 1861 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Eliza Daughter F 7 1864 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Ralph Wm Son M 5 1866 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Frederick Arthur Son M 3 1868 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Clarke Brown Son M 1 1870 Northamptonshire

This Elza Still there in 1881

1881: Private, Hackleton
HOWES, George Head Married M 49 1832 Shoe Manufactr Piddington
Northamptonshire
HOWES, Georgiana Wife Married F 47 1834 Whiteparish Wiltshire
HOWES, Alwyn Charles Son Single M 23 1858 Shoe Rivetter Hackleton
Northamptonshire
HOWES, Eliza Daughter Single F 17 1864 Pupil Teacher Hackleton Northamptonshire
HOWES, Ralph William Son Single M 15 1866 Shoe Rivetter Hackleton
Northamptonshire
HOWES, Frederick A Son Single M 13 1868 Leather Sorter In Factory (Shoe) Anything Hackleton Northamptonshire
HOWES, Clarke Brown Son Single M 11 1870 Scholar Hackleton Northamptonshire
HOWES, Vasti Annie Daughter Single F 8 1873 Scholar Hackleton Northamptonshire


Thank you for now!

George

Just for info and in case you dont have it.

Name: Eliza Howes
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1866
Baptism Date: 21 Jan 1866
Father's Name: Samuel Howes
Mother's Name: Eliza Howes
Parish or Poor Law Union: Haggerston St Columba
Borough: Hackney

Address for both...65 Mary Street and Samuel is listed as a shoemaker

Name: John Howes
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1866
Baptism Date: 21 Jan 1866
Father's Name: Samuel Howes
Mother's Name: Eliza Howes
Parish or Poor Law Union: Haggerston St Columba
Borough: Hackney

And Henry?

Name: Henry Howes
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1864
Baptism Date: 5 Jun 1864
Father's Name: Samuel Howes
Mother's Name: Eliza Howes
Parish or Poor Law Union: Holloway
Borough: Islington

Samuel is listed as a labourer on it though ..Address....3 Austen Terrace

Unfortunately no dates of birth are given on any of them.

Morning George
It looks as though the Eliza Howes born in Hardingstone is not the correct one. She apears to be the daughter of George and Georgiana Howes and is in the Hardingstone Reg. District in the 1871 census so we can discount that one.
I can't tell you why Eliza would have been born in Northamptonshire. Maybe they were visiting Samuel's father or friends it's difficult to say. But it is consistent throughout the census records so we can only assume that it is correct. The point is, of course, where if anywhere was her birth registered.

Hi guys! Thank you all very much for your help. Yes I do have the marriage details and certificate for Eliza Howes c1863 who in fact would have been my maternal great grandmother who married my maternal great grandfather Frederick Keyte on May 9th At St James The Great Bethal Green.

The problem with in locating this record via the internet is that the reference to the marriage states that Eiza's maiden name as being HAWES. I am quite happy that Eliza was in fact Born Howes and not Hawes. I have various copies of Frederick and Eliza children's birth certificates that state their mother surname as Howes.

The birth certificate that I am most pleased with is the one regarding Frederick and Eliza's first born, Eliza keyte.

Eliza keyte was born on the 6th September 1879 (out of wedlock) The certified copy states her parents as being Frederick keyte and Eliza Keyte Nee Howes. The icing on the cake is that both Eliza's abodes at the time of birth is given as 12 Watson (s) Place, Shoreditch. This would be the home were Eliza keyte Nee Howes was living according to the 1881 census.

1881 Census: 12, Watsons Place, Shoreditch
HOWES, Eliza Head Widow F 47 1834 Boot Maker Watford Hertfordshire
HOWES, William Son Married M 27 1854 (?) Finsbury Middlesex
HOWES, Sarah Wife Sons Married F 28 1853 Servant Domestic Islington Middlesex
HOWES, Samuel Son Single M 25 1856 Bootmaker Northampton Northamptonshire
HOWES, Henry Son Single M 16 1865 London Middlesex
HOWES, John Son Single M 15 1866 Box Works Hoxton Middlesex
HOWES, James Son Single M 13 1868 Letter Carrier Shoreditch Middlesex
HOWES, Maria Daughter Single F 10 1871 Scholar Shoreditch Middlesex
HOWES, Eliza Daughter Single F 7 1874 Scholar Shoreditch Middlesex
HOWES, William Son Single M 0 1881 Shoreditch Middlesex

My research tells me that vaious members of the Howes family were llving at 12 Watsons Place, Shoreditch up to the 1911 census.

Yes you are right Astra you have the correct family in regards to the 1881 etc my only concern is that the census states that Eliza is born in Northamptonshire between the births of her siblings Sam and Henry?

Would there be any other Eliza Howes born at about the same time as Eliza and why would she have been born in Northamptonshire ? I just want to be as sure that when ordering Eliza Howes birth certificate I am as sure as i can be that I have the correct one when researching back etc.

Regards

George

The census in 1871 is actually:
Eliza Howes 38 widow
William Howes 17 shoe maker Watford Herts
Sam Howes 15 shoe maker Finsbury Middlesex
Eliza Howes 9 Northampton
Henry Howes 7 Holloway Middlesex
John Howes 5 Holloway Middlesex
James Howes 3 Hoxton Middlesex
Maria Howes 6 Months Hoxton Middlesex

Have you got her marriage?
Thanks

Possible for her birth registration. May not be her of course as her birth may not have been registered at all.

Eliza Howes
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Hardingstone
County: Northamptonshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 43

Samuel Howes>>>>>Boot and Shoemaker
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
>>>>Spouse Name: Eliza Tatt
Spouse Age: 19
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 21 Mar 1853
Parish: St Philip, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: William Howes
Spouse Father Name: John Tatt

This I think is the family in 1861. Eliza the mother is Ellen born Hertfordshire. Father is Samuel a Shoemaker from Northamptonshire

William Howes
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Samuel Howes
Mother's Name: Ellen Howes
Gender: Male
Where born: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Howes 29
Ellen Howes 26 >>>>>Born Hertfordshire
William Howes 7 >>>>>Born Middlesex
Sam Howes 5 >>>>>>Born Northampton
Richard Howes 1
Maria Milton 32 >>>>>Visitor born Watford Hertfordshire
Sarah Milton 11

Samuel Howes
England and Wales Census, 1881
birth: 1856 — Northampton, Northamptonshire, England
christening:
baptism:
death:
burial:
residence: 1881 — Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
parents:
spouse:
child:
marriage:

record title: England and Wales Census, 1881
name: Samuel Howes
age: 25
gender: Male
birth year: 1856
birthplace: Northampton, Northamptonshire, England
relationship to head of household: Son
marital condition: Single
profession/occupation: Bootmaker
address: 12 Watsons Place
census place: Shoreditch, Middlesex, England
record type: Household
family history library film: 1341087
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 401 / 79
page number: 21

William Howells
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
birth: 1854
christening: 1858 — HARPENDEN, HERTFORD, ENGLAND
baptism:
death:
burial:
residence: 1854 — Harpenden, Hertfordshire, England
parents: William Howells, Eliza
spouse:
child:
marriage:

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: William Howells
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 1858
baptism/christening place: HARPENDEN, HERTFORD, ENGLAND
birth date: 1854
father's name: William Howells
mother's name: Eliza
indexing project (batch) number: C07240-7
system origin: England-VR
source film number: 1040664

Hi

I am trying to locate a birth reference for a Eliza Howes . According to the 1871 census record she was born Northamptonshire 1862.

Here is the 1871 Census record:

1871 Census Records: 45 Watson Place, Shoreditch
HOWES, Eliza Mother F 38 (Widow) 1833
HOWES, William Son M 17 1854 Hertfordshire
HOWES, Sam Son M 15 1856 Middlesex
HOWES, Eliza Daughter F 9 1862 Northamptonshire
HOWES, Henry Son M 7 1864 Middlesex

Any help would be very much appreciated. Thank you!

Letty