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Hi All,

I've hit a phenomenal stumbling block with my family tree, thanks to Censes officials of the 19th Century.

One of my ancestors changes place of birth at least twice and it isn't helping.

if you search "John Lamb b.1847 keyword Cheshire" you will quite rightly find him living in and around Winsford with my ancestors which is correct, frustratingly though he is listed as born in Hale, Lancashire (Hale Village, Merseyside) then on another it is his wife born in Hale Bank, and he is born in Middlewich, Cheshire (which wouldn't be fun because after some digging it would appear he would be a bastard child if that were correct) and I'm sure at some point his birth has been listed as the parish of Over in Winsford.

How do I tell which is the right one!?!?

Thanks for reading my mini-rant

Mike

have you found him on any census ?
Do you have a marriage cert ? That should name his father

St Elphin Warrington C25/8/75
LAMB John MOSS Sarah Jane Stockport, St Mary Stockport ST16/18/458

Please can you give a census ref you have found Michael?

Is this John in 1881 ??

Name: John Lamb
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah Jane Lamb
Gender: Male
Where born: Hale, Cheshire, England

Civil parish: Wharton
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street Address: 256 Station Road (Grocers Shop)
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Salt Maker

Registration district: Northwich
Sub-registration district: Over
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Lamb 34
Sarah Jane Lamb 35 >>>Wharton, Cheshire
Sarah Ann Lamb 13
John Thos. Lamb 9
William A. Lamb 7
Josiah Lamb 3
Levi Lamb

Wharton is part of Winsford. Hale is some 15 miles away nearby Altrincham in Cheshire.

Linda

Michael,

The various places of birth shown in the census records may not necessarily be the fault of the census enumerators. In the main they would record what they were being told. There are many reasons why people sometimes gave less than accurate information about themselves to census officials.

In some cases it was because of the Poor Law which meant that if they fell on hard times they could be "Sent back" to the place/parish where they originated from. In other cases it may have been because they were trying to cover their tracks because of earlier misdemeanour's. In most cases however it was probably because they simply did not know exactly where they had actually been born. They may never have been told or perhaps their parents had relocated the family when they were very young and the individuals believed that they had been born wherever the family had settled.

The last scenario applied to my 2x Great Grandfather. He was actually born in Sudbury in Suffolk in 1845 but his family moved to Twickenham, Middlesex when he was 3 years old. In the 1851 census his birthplace, presumably provided by his father, was accurately recorded. In the 1861 census when he had become a living in servant his birthplace was recorded as Twickenham. By 1871 after marriage he was still indicating that he was born in Twickenham. The same in 1881. It was only in 1891 that his original birthplace, Sudbury, was again recorded. It was only because of the names, ages and birthplaces of his wife and children that I was able to confirm that the records that I had discovered all related to the same man.

On further investigation, I don't actually see there is a problem with identifying the correct person from the censuses at all as the records are consistent right through from 1861-1901, with one small exception.

John Lamb was born in Hale abt 1847.That is consistent across all the censuses. The only question is whether it is the Hale in Lancs or the one in Cheshre. His wife Sarah Jane was born in or near Middlewich

However, if you check the 1861 census more closely, you will see it shows John living with his parents John and Jane Lamb, both aged 39. It is his father John who was was born in Middlewich, and his mother Jane who was born in Hale Bank. John 1847 was born in Hale. So, this is perhaps where you believe there was a recording error, whereas in fact there isn't.

Given that Hale Bank is in Lancashire, I would guess that John junr was born in nearby Hale Lancs, rather than the Cheshire Hale.

This, is I believe, his Baptism

JOHN LAMBE
Event(s):
Birth:
07 APR 1846
Christening:
31 MAY 1846 Hale, Lancashire, England
Death:
Burial:

Parents:
Father: JOHN LAMBE Family
Mother: JANE

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C005382 1843 - 1885

And this is his birth certificate.

Births Jun 1846
Lambe John
Prescot 20 877

Hale came under Prescot until 1964 when it transferred to Widnes.

Don't blame the Census officials - they recorded the info they were given.

Any 'fault' lies with the person givng the info - who probably wasn't sure where and/or when he was born.

Or, perhaps, with your interpretation of the recorded info........................

But after all is said, you cant do it properly without buying certificates, they generally throw up a bit of information that you can't find on any census.

That is one reason I have given Mike the Birth reg and Baptism details above, also a bit of further research showed that there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the census returns in this particular case, just a case of slight misinterpretation.....!

Hi All,

Sorry for the lack of a response, I've been stuck at work today.

On the points raised above, I have to agree and yet disagree.

Through tiredness, I put the wrong John down, apologies, it should have been the 1822 John (there is 6 of them so far)

Looking at the actual image of the 1861 Census, it shows John Born Middlewich, Sarah Jane born Hale Banks. With John Jr. born in Hale, Illegible son Age 11 born in Halton, and then William born Cheshire, Over (Winsford)

I really do need to get these birth certificates - but would it be Lancashire or Liverpool I'd need to contact?

Cheers everyone,

Mike

this one from GRO.gov.uk

this should give you both fathers and possible witnesses as relations.

Marriages Sep 1868 (>99%)
Lamb John Stockport 8a 119
Moss Sarah Jane Stockport 8a 119


then you look for John's birth with the right father

I think we need a bit of clarification......


1861 census

Name: John Lamb
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation: Son
Father's Name: John Lamb
Mother's Name: Jane Lamb
Gender: Male
Where born: Hale, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Over
Ecclesiastical parish: Whitegate
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England


Registration district: Northwich
Sub-registration district: Over
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 40
Household Members: Name Age
John Lamb 39 b. Middlewich....Labourer, Salt Works
Jane Lamb 39 b. Hale Bank
John Lamb 15 b. Hale
Joseph Lamb 11 b. Walton (Woolton?)
William Lamb 9 b. Over
Thomas Lamb 5
James Lamb 2
Hannah Oakes 19


So you are looking for info about the FATHER...............

Have you looked for his marriage?

1851......he didn't know where he was born

Name: John Lamb
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane Lamb
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: N

Civil parish: Much Woolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England


Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: Hale
ED, institution, or vessel: 2b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 86
Household Members: Name Age
John Lamb 28
Jane Lamb 28
John Lamb 5
Joseph Lamb 2
Edward Above 20 Lodger

Joseph Lamb
Birth: 25 AUG 1850 Woolton, Lancashire, England

Christening: 25 OCT 1850 Woolton, Lancashire, England

Parents:
Father: John Lamb
Mother: Jane

Batch No.: C161031

You need to get John jnr's birth cert...£9.25 on line form the GRO.

Then you can find the marriage of his parents..........the cert for that will tell you John snr's father's details

Getting certs is the only accurate way of working back.............

So sorry to throw a spanner in the works Lindsey : ) There is another possible marriage....

Name: John Lamb
Year of Registration: 1866
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Northwich
County: Cheshire
Volume: 8a
Page: 412 (click to see others on page)

Spouse...Sarah J Atherton.

Northwich reg district covered many villages...including Wharton, Over and Middlewich.

I cross checked with Cheshirebmd...sadly states a civil marriage.

Linda x

So, just to clarify, and to ensure we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak:-

You are NOT specifically looking for information re John Lamb b 1846 and his wife Sarah Jane

You ARE looking for information regarding John Lamb b abt 1822 and his wife Jane.

And, to summarise what the census returns tell us:-

The 1851 Census has no place of birth entered for any of the family. This sort of indicates that the enumerator was unable to obtain the information and filled in the census the best he could. I see that the various ages have also been changed. Family are in Woolton, Nr Liverpool

The 1861 Census tells us John was born in Middlewich and Jane in Hale Bank. Family are living in Over

The 1871 Census also John was born in Middlewich and Jane in Hale. Family are living in Over. The 1881 census tells the same story

Hi All,

Cheeky check on this whilst in work,

Yes it is indeed John Snr. 1822 we're looking at and yes InspectorGreenPen, it is correct what you state about the censuses, or would it be censai?

Cheers,

Mike

Definitely CENSUSES.......... and never ever Censai.........IF you want to use Latin, it would be CENSI

If you really wish to find out accurately, you need to follow the advice given earlier about purchasing birth..............then marriage........cert