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Hi,

Have tried in vain to find a marriage for George Bailey (b 1816 Manchester -father was Robert Bailey) & Eliza??? .
1st child born 1841 so it could be about a year before - common occurence
Many thanks

Do you know if they married in Manchester area?

Where were they living on 1841 census?

Who was first child and where born ?

birth: Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
residence: Manchester, Lancashire, England
parents: George Bayley, Isabella

record title: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
name: George Bayley
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 09 Jun 1816
baptism/christening place: Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
birthplace: Collegiate, Manchester,Lancashire, England
father's name: George Bayley
mother's name: Isabella
indexing project (batch) number: C01321-4
system origin: England-EASy
source film number:

Thanks Ann o fGG

This seems very likely despite the difference in spelling of bailey.
Their first child Isabella was born June 1841.

My previous info may be incorrect.
Recurrent names are sometimes a clue and there are no Elizas at all in this branch of my tree.
Isabella occurs 3 times in the Bailey line.
Jacqui

Hi Ann
Now I'm getting myself all muxed ip.

George jnr was born 1816 and his parents were George and Isabella. That bit's fine.

George jnr married someone called Eliza, but that's the marriage I can't find.
It's THEIR child who was Isabella b 1841 obviously called after his mother.
Does that make sense ?
Jacqui

thanks EVEIE, .
That could be the one.
Wonder when the spelling changed.
Jacqui

Daughter's birth ?????

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1841
Bailey Isabella - Salford 20 746

Was George married previously ??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1838

Bailey George Marsden Liverpool 20 133 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bate Mary Liverpool 20 133
Evans Mary Liverpool 20 133
Jones Ann Liverpool 20 133
Jones William Liverpool 20 133
Laycock Henry William Liverpool 20 133
Manners Jane Liverpool 20 133

This is the birth?

Births Jun 1841
Bailey Isabella Salford 20 746


Is this the family in 1851 in Manchester?

Name: George Bailey
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Eliza Bailey
> Father's name: Robert Bailey
Where born: Manchester, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Manchester
Town: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Manchester

George Bailey 35 - spindle maker
Eliza Bailey 35
Martha Bailey 13
Isabela Bailey 11
Joseph Bailey 1
Bessy Bailey 1/12
Robert Bailey 56


You really need Isabella's birth certificate to get her mother's full name.

Given the possibility of two marriages for George, you may need a later child's birth certificate as well!

The big space between the older and younger children does suggest a second marriage. Martha Bailey might be a child the second wife brought to the marriage, recorded as Bailey in the census?

If that's the right family ...

thanks everyone.
Janey, That's the record I've been using. but in that george's father is recorded as Robert.
The earlier findings from Ann GG are also very likely, but parentas are different.
like you I'm thinking 2 marriages or he took on eliza's children from previous relationship, given the big gap.
Bigamy sounds good - not got any of that yet!!!! LOL

Much less interesting but George's first wife may have died after Isabella. Marries Eliza and has betsy and joseph.
I'll send for certificates to make sure.
thanks for all your help.

sorry to upset the applecart but George's wife in 1846 was not Eliza

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1846
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BAYLEY George M WOOLAM Ann M Manchester, St. John Manchester STJ/7/124

the 1838 Liverpool one was to Mary Bate

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1838
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BAILEY George M BATE Mary Liverpool, St. David Liverpool 2099LP/1/62

If Eliza was a second marriage this one could fit given the age of the younger children

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1849
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BAILEY George TUTE Eliza Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Manchester CATH/73/2

have you found the family in 1841 (don't forget ages of adults were rounded) and there seems to have been at least one child born 1837/38 - Marth

"Much less interesting but George's first wife may have died after Isabella. Marries Eliza and has betsy and joseph."

That was the scenario I had in mind. ;)

"That's the record I've been using. " (the 1851 census I posted)

But you said Isabella 1841 was their first child, and there's older daughter Martha in 1851!


You do need to be sure that the Isabella birth in 1841 is really your Isabella.

LancsAnn -- I hunted around in the 1841 census for all of 'em to no avail.

If Martha and/or Isabella belonged to a second wife of George Bailey, it would mean looking at a gazillion records to find a Martha or Isabella with a mother Eliza who fit, since relationships can't be used for searching the 1841 ...


EVEIE -- I had gone past thinking to myself and searched at pilot.familysearch for an Isabella Marsden connection ... to no avail. ;)


starburst, who in this crowd is actually your most recent ancestor (child of George?), and what info do you have about that person, e.g. from birth / marriage certificates?

Janey - I think the Marsden bit is now irrelevant as I think we have proved that neither George Marsden Bailey marriage was the right one. I agree that the only way to go is to get Isabella's birth cert as her mother's name could be anything if Eliza was a second wife married after Isabella was born (poss the one in 1849 above). George could also have been married before 1837 as there could also be a child older than Martha who has already left home in 1851 to go into service so parish records would be needed.

Love your photo on GR facebook Janey - sure you did not borrow it from FBG????




edit
It could be difficult to find the right Isabella birth as the 1841 one in Salford would only make her 9yrs old not 11 in 1851

this one in Chorlton is perhaps a little close but she may not even have been registered
Births Mar 1838 (>99%)
Bayley Isabella Chorlton 20 130

Hi everyone,
Isabella Bailey 1841 is GG grandmother. She married William Henry Whitney in Manchester 1862.
i have certified evidence from their daughter Martha Ann Whitney to date.
Sorry my mistake Janey. Martha Bailey was 1838, Isabella 1841.
Family are mainly from manchester and later salford - and still are.
There is no Liverpool connection at all and as 1851 Census shows, bailey is spelt ai rather than ay.
I think Lancashire ann is right to discount the Marsden bit. The name means nothing at all to anyone and doesn't fit any info.

until my certs arrive i assume George had Martha and Isabella with wife 1 and Bessie and Joseph with wife 2. GRO will make a fortune from me. Thank you all so much for your efforts.
watch this space.

So that being the right household in 1851, I'd say that Isabella's age just wasn't reported accurately. This is her in 1871, consistent with an 1841 birth:

Name: Isabella Whitney
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Wm H Whitney
Where born: Manchester

Civil Parish: St Jude
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Manchester

Wm H Whitney 30
Isabella Whitney 29
W H Whitney 1 Month

So there's a good chance the 1841 birth is her. *If* George was her father.



LancsAnn -- I've posted the tale of my avatar pic, "Ada the Actress", on the GR FB wall: http://www.facebook.com/genesreunited
;)

LancsAnn posted this marriage:

Marriages Dec 1849
Bailey George Manchester 20 451
Tute Eliza Manchester 20 451


Births Dec 1837 ?
Tute Martha Manchester 20 250


1841

Name: Eliza Tute
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Leicestershire, England
Occupation: anybody?

Civil Parish: Manchester
County/Island: Leicestershire [Ah, stupid Ancestry tricks]
Salford Union Workhouse


And what catches my eye as I scan the image, on the facing page?

Well, Ancestry has obviously mistranscribed it, so I'll have to see what might look likely ... Ha!


Name: Gabella Stote -- it says Isabella Tute !!
Age: 1 MO
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Where born: Leicestershire, England

Civil Parish: Manchester
Hundred: Manchester
County/Island: Leicestershire


There's no birth registration for that name ... and I don't see Martha Tute in 1841.

Just in case it's the right trail:


Name: Eliza Tute
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 18 Oct 1816
Baptism/Christening Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father's Name: Robert Tute
Mother's Name: Martha Tute
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C03584-2
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 438167
Reference Number: p. 282, no. 2256
Collection: Ireland, Civil Registration Indexes, 1845-1958


But the Martha Tute birth would be wrong:

Name: Martha Tute
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 26 Nov 1837
Baptism/Christening Place: Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Birthplace: Manchester, Lancaster, England
> Father's Name: John Tute
> Mother's Name: Eliza Tute
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02292-7
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1545611
Reference Number: item 2 p 851
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975


Although ... that John Tute might be a fiction or a muddle, because there are also these births:

Name: Mary Ann Hurst
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 08 Mar 1835
Baptism/Christening Place: CATHEDRAL, MANCHESTER, LANCASHIRE, ENGLAND
> Father's Name: John Hurst
> Mother's Name: Eliza Tute
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C09789-6
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 438172
Reference Number:
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Either Tute or Hurst could be a misreading ... Mother's surname just wasn't recorded for baptisms of children of married couples at the time.

Name: Emma Tute
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 26 Apr 1846
Baptism/Christening Place: Christ Church, Manchester, Lancashire, England
> Father's Name:
> Mother's Name: Eliza Tute
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04836-7
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 93969
Reference Number: 116
Collection: England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

and possibly a death to match:

Deaths Jun 1846
Tute Emma Manchester 20 468


Eliza Tute's mother was Martha and she had a brother Joseph born 1832, so the names line up.

janey ,
You're a star. You just keep going.
Thank you very much.

I'll go with the possible infant death as well. There are so many of them in this particular branch.