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thanks for the update Jean

Just to let everyone know, I sent for a birth cert and Ellen was definately Nuttall before marriage. thanks again.

regards Jean

Many many thanks again all of you, this is all so fantastic, you have found out so much for me .

thanks again. Jean

for James the mmn reverts to Nutter same as for Mary

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1891
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HORROCKS James Oldham Above Town Oldham NUTTER OAT/133/186

Here's Julie's 1871

1871 England Census
Civil parish: Radcliffe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Church
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 129 Spring Lane
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Radcliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Household schedule number: 77

Frances Nuttall 55 Haywood, Lancashire, England Head W Washerwoman
Thomas Nuttall 30 Haywood, Lancashire, England Son U No employment
Martha Nuttall 25 Pilkington, Lancashire, England Daughter U Cotton Winder
Ellen Nuttall 21 Pilkington, Lancashire, England Daughter U Stitcher Brick Works
James Nuttall 19 Pilkington, Lancashire, England Son U Beetler Black Works

Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 3962; Folio: 77; Page: 19; GSU roll: 841954.

and the matching 1851

1851 England Census
Civil parish: Pilkington
Ecclesiastical parish: Unsworth
Town: Unsworth
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: [blank]
Registration district: Bury
Sub-registration district: Radcliffe
ED, institution, or vessel: 1m
Household schedule number: 122

James Nuttall 28 Heywood, Lancashire, England Head M Overlooker at Cotton Mill
Frances Nuttall 24 Heywood, Lancashire, England Wife M Weaver at Cotton Mill
John Nuttall 12 Heywood, Lancashire, England Son Scholar
Thomas Nuttall 10 Heywood, Lancashire, England Son Scholar
Martha Nuttall 5 Heywood, Lancashire, England Daughter Scholar
Ellen Nuttall 1 Prestwich, Lancashire, England Daughter

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2216; Folio: 552a; Page: 32; GSU roll: 87226.

There's only 1 Mary b1879 @ Oldham on LancsBMD:

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1879
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HORROCKS Mary Oldham Above Town Oldham NUTTER OAT/93/147

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1880
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HORROCKS Frances Oldham Above Town Oldham NUTTALL OAT/98/66

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1884
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
HORROCKS Betty Oldham Above Town Oldham NUTTALL OAT/110/481

Hi
Have you had a look on www.lancashirebmd.org.uk ? They give reference numbers and where they were registered. some places you can order birth, marriage and death certs online. I know it helped me!
Gabby

Thank's very much for all your help, I certainly have a lot more to go at! I will definately send for a Birth Certificate of Mary.

1881 England Census about Ellen Horrocks
Name: Ellen Horrocks
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William Horrocks
Gender: Female
Where born: Pilkington, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Oldham
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address: 16 Crowley
Condition as to marriage: Married

Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham Above Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 32
Household Members: Name Age
William Horrocks 42 .. Cotton Weaver
Ellen Horrocks 32
Mary Horrocks 2
Frances Horrocks

1891 England Census about Ellen Horrocks
Name: Ellen Horrocks
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William Horrocks
Gender: Female
Where born: Pilkington, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: Holy Trinity
Town: Oldham
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:16 Crowley
Occupation: Charwoman

Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham Above Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Household Members: Name Age
William Horrocks 51 .. Cotton Weaver
Ellen Horrocks 42
Mary Horrocks 12
Frances Horrocks 10
Betty Horrocks 6

The 1881 & 1891 census records state that she was born at Pilkington


Marriages did not always happen before the children were born

It might be best to buy a childs birth certificate to find the mothers name.

On the 1881 census their second daughter, Frances, was listed as 4mths old. The census was taken on the 3rd of April, so this puts her birth around Dec, 1880 - Jan 1881... there was this birth...

Births Dec 1880 (>99%)
HORROCKS Frances Oldham 8d 636

??? their eldest daughter... ??

Births Jun 1879 (>99%)
Horrocks Mary Oldham 8d 666

Births Dec 1884 (>99%)
Horrocks Betty Oldham 8d 658

There are several posibilities for 'James'

Is this the family in 1901

1901 England Census
about Ellen Horrocks Name: Ellen Horrocks
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William Horrocks
Gender: Female
Where born: Whitefield, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Oldham
Ecclesiastical parish: Waterhead Holy Trinity
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham Above Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 158
Household Members: Name Age
William Horrocks 60 1841 Ainsworth Lancs
Ellen Horrocks 50 1851 Whitefield Lancs
Mary Horrocks 21 1880 Oldham Lancs
Francis Horrocks 20 1881 OldHam Lancs
Betty Horrocks 16 1885 Oldham Lancs
James Horrocks 9 son 1892 born Oldham Lancs

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3818; Folio: 17; Page: 25

Perhaps. William Horrocks 1876 sept qt Manchester to Ellen Pye 8d 218

Yes please, I have looked but had no luck.

So we are look for a Ellen ? b abt 1851 then
_________________________

what about this one

Marriages Jun 1877 (>99%)
Bentley Rose Bury 8c 621
Horrocks William Bury 8c 621
>>>>>>>>>Nuttall Ellen Bury 8c 621
WILSON Frank Bury 8c 621


She is on the 1871 but as i don't have full access i can be 100% sure.......but when i put in Pilkington where she was born ( taken off the 1881) this one came up

Ellen Nuttall name abt 1850 city, Lancashire, England relation city, Lancashire

Also it doesn't always help when 1st Child was born as my Nan was born 14 years before her parents married :o))

I don't know, I don't think so, I am hoping to find a marriage so I can find ou t a bit more, their first child was born 1892, again I'm not sure.

Was her maiden name Horrocks

can someone help me find the maiden name of Ellen Horrocks b abt 1851, married to William Horrocks abt 1879, I cannot find their marriage anywhere, she was born in Whitefield Lancashire he was born in Oldham Lancashire.