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I'm trying to find any info on my grandmother Agnes, I've been told she was Irish, but she married my grandfather in Fulham in April 1919 and they moved to Glasgow where they had 4 sons, so I have no idea how she met him or why they moved to Scotland. After one son's death at the age of 6, and the death of her husband Frederick John Osborne (which I have also been unable to find details of), she moved back to Greater London, where 2 of her sons had been sent to live to escape extreme hardship. We think she later married a man by the name of Ernest Simm, but I haven't found a record of her death. All I know is that she was deceased before my parents were married in 1958. my father died when I was a child and I have no other relatives left that I know to ask. Please help if you can.

Have you got her marriage cert to your grandfather? Seems like the best place to start. You should get some details about her father and can look for her on census report - bit of a common name though isn't it!
jan

Looks like her second marriage

Name: Agnes Osborne
Spouse Surname: Ernest Simm
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1938
Registration district: Brentford
Registration county (inferred): Middlesex
Volume Number: 3a
Page Number: 651


Could this have been her death?

Name: Agnes J Simm
Death Registration Month/Year: 1939
Age at death (estimated): 43
Registration district: Brentford
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a
Page: 347

That's brilliant! Thank you, I'll get the certificates and eat my hat if they don't tally!

Yes, I got the certificate which is how I know her approximate year of birth, it also gave her father's name and occupation as Patrick Kelly, deceased. So she wasn't the only one with a common name- a bit of a blind alley really! I've not been able to find her on the 1911 census due to the common name and not knowing who she may have been living with. I'm scratching for clues that may give me enough info to get a birth certificate. Thanks for the support.

Scottish births certificates often have marriage date of the parents, so if any of the sons were actually born in Scotland it could help you find the first marriage certificate.

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

Rose

Just keep this in mind in case it turns out to be yours:

KELLY, Patrick Joseph Head M 57 1854 Police Pensioner Fermanagh Beelic Resident VIEW
KELLY, Mary Wife Married
27 years F 52 1859 Limerick Kilcornad Resident VIEW
KELLY, Francis Edward Son Single M 23 1888 Mercantile Clerk Essex Barking VIEW
KELLY, Alice Ellen Daughter Single F 18 1893 Wine Merchants Clerk Essex Barking VIEW
KELLY, Agnes Mary Daughter Single F 14 1897 Student Essex Barking VIEW
RG number:
RG14 Piece:
9911 Reference:
RG14PN9911 RG78PN522 RD191 SD3 ED1 SN284

Registration District:
Romford Sub District:
Barking Town Enumeration District:
1 Parish:
Barking

Address:
47 Cranbourne Road Barking County:
Essex

Here's what I have for definite... the marriage of Agnes to my grandfather John: Solemnized at the Register Office of Fulham, 12th April 1919 Frederick John Osborne age 22 years of 35 Strafford Road, Hounslow, to Agnes Kelly age 23 of 2 Snowbury Road, Fulham. Her father's name was Patrick Kelly, deceased, former occupation Coachman. The witnesses were Thomas J O'Connor and Florence E O'Connor. I believe Agnes's middle name was Eileen though this is not given on the marriage certificate.

My grandfather fought in the First World War and his rank is given on the marriage cert as Gunner R.F.A No.122267 I've been told that he suffered from being mustard gassed but I've not been able to find his death sometime between 1929 (birth of youngest son) and 1938 (marriage of Agnes to Ernest). It was probably around 1933 when my dad was sent to live with relatives and would either have happened in Glasgow or Hounslow. This may give me some more clues to Agnes's lot in life, so if anyone can find his death I'd be eternally grateful!
Thanks again detectives and miracle-workers!

Bingo! Certificates have arrived and it's definitely my grandmother Agnes Osborne who married Ernest Simm as her father's details tally. Her death 14 months later was due to a brain tumour, she was my age (scary!). It turns out her middle name was JOSEPHINE, not Eileen as my mum thought. Please can anyone try to find her BIRTH which would have been in Ireland, Scotland or England, between 10th December 1895 and 12th April 1896 (check my maths... she was 23 by 1st marriage on 12th April 1919, 42 by 2nd marriage 10th October 1938 and 43 by her death on 9th December 1939). She was born Agnes Josephine Kelly to Patrick Kelly a domestic coachman, I don't know her mother's name, but they were Roman Catholic if that helps. We're on the trail, please help, thank you!

Nudge

Hi Helene

that's good news. I'll have a good look, in the meantime I've come across this Irish 1901 census record - the age is wrong for Agnes but it may be connected to you at some point. The following is all copied from an entry

This census was filled out by Patrick in his writing and signed by him. In this document, he spells his name with only one "t", unlike the registration of his daughter Mary Jane's birth certificate that shows "Patt Joseph". In this document his wife Hanora's name is spelt without the "h" on the end. Again unlike the spelling on the Birth Certificate the Spells it Hanorah.
Transcription of text in document

Form A
No. on Form B. 12
Name and Surname
Relation to Head of Family
Religious Profession
Education
Age
Sex
Rank, Profession, or Occupation
Marriage
Where Born
Irish Language
If Deaf and Dumb, Blind, Idiot or Lunatic
1. Patrick Kelly Head of Family, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 58, M, Mason, Married, Co. Clare
2. Hanora Kelly, Wife, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 44, F, Wife, Married, Co. Clare
3. James Kelly, Son, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 18, M. Agricultural Labourer, Not Married, Co. Clare
4. Thomas Kelly, Son, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 14, M. Scholar, Not Married, Co. Clare.
5. Mary Jane Kelly, daughter, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 13, F., Scholar, Not Married, Co. Clare.
6. Agnes Kelly, daughter, Roman Catholic, Read and Write, 9, F., Scholar, Not Married, Co. Clare
I hereby certify, as required by the Act 63 Civ, cap. 6, a 6 (1),that the foregoing Return is correct, according to the best of my knowledge and belief. Bernard Hiney Conat (Signature of Enumerator)
I believe the foregoing t be a true Return
Patrick Kelly (Signature of Head of Family)

Do you know when the 6yr old son died - just to get a date range of the birth of her 4 sons?

Do you know any of their names?

Agnes's sons were my dad and uncles as follows: Frederick James Osborne b. 23rd Jan.1920 d. 6th April 1926; Patrick Leopold (later became Leonard) Osborne b. 29th May 1923;
Anthony Cyril Osborne b.15th May 1927; Ian Joseph (known as Jack) Osborne b.20th March 1929. They lived in Glasgow while they had children but I don't know when she moved south. My dad and his brother Jack were raised by their uncle in Middlesex from about 1933. Since they all died before I was born or when I was a child I'm struggling for information. There must be some first cousins out there I imagine, and maybe someone has a photo of Agnes... I can hope!

Still drawing a blank on the birth of Agnes Josephine Kelly. It was definitely between December 1895 and April 1896 but I've not been able to unearth clues as to whether this was indeed in Ireland (as my mum thinks) or elsewhere. If anyone has access to Irish birth records I'd be so grateful if you'd have a go at finding her. It would also be useful to know if it's NOT there. Is there any reason why a birth record may have vanished completely such as bombings or political problems? Did the 1911 census happen in Ireland too?

HI Helene

You can access both the 1901 & 1911 Irish census free online at:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/

Theresa

A possibility? Unfortunately no father to check, but right sort of age?

Residents of a house 1.2 in East Road (North Dock, Dublin)

Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation Literacy Irish Language Marital Status Specified Illnesses Years Married Children Born Children Living

Kelly Mary Ellen 40 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic Dublin Shop Keeper Read and write English Widow - 17 9 6

Kelly Emily Elizabeth 15 Female Daughter Roman Catholic Co Dublin Weaver Braid and C Read and write English Single - - - -

>>>Kelly Agnes Josephine 14 Female Daughter Roman Catholic Co Dublin - Read and write English Single - - - -

Kelly Mary Ellen 12 Female Daughter Roman Catholic Co Dublin Scholar Read and write English Single - - - -

Kelly William 10 Male Son Roman Catholic Co Dublin Scholar Read and write English Single - - - -

Kelly John Stephen 9 Male Son Roman Catholic Co Dublin Scholar Read and write English Single - - - -

Kelly Rita Margaret 6 Female Daughter Roman Catholic Co Dublin Scholar Read and write English Single - - - -

Unfortunately this is probably the same family in 1901, with father John kelly which rules out your Agnes, but still worth going to the site to check out all posssbilities for yourself:

Residents of a house 862 in Frankfort Place Upper Rathmines (Rathmines, Dublin)

Show all informationSurname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion Birthplace Occupation Literacy Irish Language Marital Status Specified Illnesses

Kelly Emily E 5 Female Daughter Roman Catholics Dublin County - Not - Not Married -

Kelly Agnes J 4 Female Daughter Roman Catholics Dublin County - Not - Not Married -

Kelly Mary E 3 Female Daughter Roman Catholics Dublin County - Not - Not Married -

Rategan Mary 15 Female Domestic Servant Roman Catholics Co Kildare - Read and write - Not Married -

Kelly John 35 Male Head of Family Roman Catholics Dublin City Builder Read and write - Married -

Kelly William Male Son Roman Catholics Dublin County - Not - Not Married -

Kelly Mary E 32 Female Wife Roman Catholics Dublin County - Read and write - Married -

Thanks for the link; I've had a good look through the Irish censuses and found a couple of other possibilities, one with the head of household being a widow, Anne Kelly (aged38) with her eldest son being called Patrick, worth considering since eldest sons usually got their dad's name. The Agnes Kelly on that census was 5 which I would expect her to have been in 1901 by the time the census was done (usually late spring?). The family was from County Kildare. Is there any way of finding a marriage perhaps to see if this Anne was married to a coachman named Patrick? Or is there any access to older censuses as this family had children up to 18 years of age and would have appeared together on an earlier document.

Is there a BMD index for Ireland? It's a tricky one this! Thanks for your help so far...!

Sadly the 1881 and 1891 Irish census was supposedly pulped as waste paper during WWI.

You could try the Irish Civil Registration at the Family Search site:

http://search.labs.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347