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MaureenNY and JaneyCanack.

What a mix up. it seems that the details about the KNowles family could all be right. After many questions I discovered that Samuel(s) were barge people who tended to horses which would explain the different addresses. Hope to explain this to you when my friend has been to Wor cester record office. she does insist that John Knowles was born in Droitwich in 1895 to Samuel and Miriam but also says that there was a Sam and Sarah before that. The details about Warrington fit too and Maud was the daughter of Sam and Miriam.

Thank you for your help and your thoughts on the subject.

Alice

And we'll be interested to hear what any certificates say, if she wants to tell, of course! We might be able to get further with it, once that comes in.

Nice of you to reply.Alice!

Good luck.
Maureen

to maureenNY and JaneyCanuck

Sorry been having problems with my electrics. Thank you for your help.
I think maybe the Warrington contact is most helpful I do know the family had some time there. instersting to see Ernesrt was born in Maidstone Am going to study you replies now to see if I can make sense of them so I can pass on the info to my friend. she is about to go to Worcester Record Office because John,s birth certificate says that is where he was born
Thank you fior all the rouble you have gone to your help is greatly appreciated. I am not very good at this.

Alice

Rather disappointing not to have heard more from Alice, after the considerable time put into solving that one ...

It's interesting that Ernest's birthplace in 1911 is Maidstone.

Because in 1891 there is this family in Kent:

Name: Samuel Knowles
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Farningham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Chatham
Town: Chatham
County/Island: Kent
Registration district: Medway

Mary Knowles 29
Alfred Knowles 3
Marion Knowles 1
Samuel Knowles 31 -- *blacksmith*

I would have read his age as 50, but it may well be 30.


And there was an Ernest Knowles born at the right time in Maidstone reg dist (and just the one in Kent 1891-2):

Births Sep 1891
Knowles Ernest Maidstone 2a 717


Aha. The birthplace for Mary, Alfred and Marion in 1891 seems to say "Wendsboro"; "Kent" has been added beside it in another hand.

Wednesbury, Staffordshire, I'd say.

They sure seem like they should be the "right" ones,Janey. I'm sure Alice has her reasons for dismissing them.(be nice to know what they are!!)

Haven't found anyone pre-1901 as yet.
Have to go out for a while...

Maureen

So whaddaya think, Maureen? ;)

Have you found a *different* Samuel and Miriam?? I sure haven't.

But then I can't find them in 1881 or 1891 still ... or Samuel in 1871. Wondered whether his mother might have remarried and he appears under a stepfather's surname in 1871, but can't find a match.

1911 census transcription details for: 10 Holland St Warrington Lancashire

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN23164 RG78PN1353 RD459 SD4 ED34 SN324


Reg. District: Warrington Sub District: Warrington
Parish: Warrington Enum. District: 34
Address: 10 Holland St Warrington Lancashire
County: Lancashire
HUMPHREY, Thomas Head Married
12 years M 44 1867 Labourer Monk Hall Wednesbury Staff
HUMPHREY, Mary Ann Wife Married F 30 1881 Wednesbury Staff
HUMPHREY, Thomas Son M 4 1907 Warrington Lancs
HUMPHREY, Mary Daughter F 1 1910 Warrington Lancs
HUMPHREY, Eva Daughter F 0 (2 MONTHS) 1911 Warrington Lancs
KNOWLES, Earnest Boarder Single M 19 1892 Labour Monks Hall Maidstone
KNOWLES, John Boarder Single M 16 1895 Labour Monks Hall Worcester


1911 census transcription details for: 14 Leicester ST

National Archive Reference:

RG14PN23166 RG78PN1353 RD459 SD4 ED36 SN159


Reg. District: Warrington Sub District: Warrington
Parish: Warrington Enum. District: 36
Address: 14 Leicester ST
County: Lancashire
HAMLETT, Albert Head Married M 27 1884 Iron Works Labourer Barnasbas Warrington Lan
HAMLETT, Elizabeth Wife Married F 28 1883 Warrington Lan
HAMLETT, Albert Hectoner Son M 3 1908 Warrington Lan
HAMLETT, Ethel Daughter F 0 (4 MONTHS) 1911 Warrington Lan
KNOWLES, Samuel Visitor Married M 53 1858 Striker For Blacksmith Wednesbury Staffs
KNOWLES, Miriam Visitor F 53 1858 Wednesbury Staffs
KNOWLES, Maud?? Visitor F 24 1887 Wednesbury Staffs


Maureen

double posted ...

This death is an exact match for the age of "Maria Knowles" in 1914 (there is no other remotely likely death for a Miriam Knowles):

Deaths Jun 1914
Knowles Miriam 57 Warrington 8c 233


1911

KNOWLES MIRIAM 1858 53 Warrington Lancashire
KNOWLES SAMUEL 1858 53
KNOWLES MAUD F 1887 24 (I can't tell relationship, but not daughter)

Someone with paid access may be able to provide other details of that household. They all answer to born in Wednesbury, but they could be coincidental, although it would seem a rather large coincidence, again.



Note that in 1901 they were living in a workhouse. It would not be surprising if the person who recorded their information called her Maria rather than Miriam, if the information was taken orally.


This is Samuel in 1861 with parents Samuel and Sarah:

Name: Samuel Knowles
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Samuel
Mother's Name: Sarah
Where born: Wednesbury, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Wednesbury
Registration district: West Bromwich

Samuel Knowles 54
Sarah Knowles 45
Alfred Knowles 14
Fanny Knowles 12
Sarah Knowles 5
Samuel Knowles 2

If that's your Samuel, then he's the one in the 1901 census above.

That's a little odd, Alice. You started by saying you were looking for Samuel Knowles and Miriam Smith from the Worcestershire area, and "I know of one sone John born about 1895 and another Ernest killed in first world war. Have not been able to find them on the 1901 census"

The 1901 household brummiejan found, in Leicestershire but from Staffordshire, is:

Samuel Knowles 43
Maria Knowles 43
Ernest Knowles 12
John Knowles 6

A rather perfect match, as census records go. But they were doppelgangers, some other family with virtually identical names, including a son John born c1895?

And the 1881 marriage in Staffordshire with the identical names, who are plainly the couple in the 1901 census:

KNOWLES Samuel Dudley 6c 112
Smith Miriam Dudley 6c 112

is, again, some other couple with all the same details?

That all strikes me as unlikely. ;)


How do you have the names of Samuel Knowles and Miriam Smith, and the information about their place of origin? If not their marriage, which is what you're looking for, a child's birth certificate?

Thsnk you to Brummiejan, Tania and Janeycanuck for the information about the Knowles family. Un.fortunately this is not the family I am seeking

Thank you all for your help. It is much appreciated.
Alice

CWGC: http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14

Of the Ernest Knowles-s for whom parents' names are shown, none is the son of Samuel and Miriam. Of course there are several E-s and Ernest-s for whom no date of birth or next of kin are recorded.

Do you have the details of your Ernest's death in WWI? What unit he was in, when he died, e.g.?There could be a record at that site that would fit.

1901 England Census
about John Knowles
Name: John Knowles
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1895
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Samuel
Mother's Name: Maria
Gender: Male
Where born: Wednesbury, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Hinckley
Ecclesiastical parish: Hinckley St Mary
Town: Hinckley
County/Island: Leicestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Hinckley
Sub-registration district: Hinckley
ED, institution, or vessel: Hinckley Union Workhouse
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Samuel Knowles 43
Maria Knowles 43
Ernest Knowles 12
John Knowles 6
Rebecca Longman 27
Mary Longman 3
George Watson 32
William Finch 60



this one????

Seems a bit early - do you have a location?

Marriages Sep 1881 (>99%)
EDWARDS Ann Maria Dudley 6c 112
KNOWLES Samuel Dudley 6c 112
Powell William Thomas Dudley 6c 112
Smith Miriam Dudley 6c 112

Trying to find the marriage of the above and also children. I know of one sone John born about 1895 and another Ernest killed in first world war. Have not been able to find them on the 1901 census They both came from the worcestershire area
alice