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hi all

i have a sarah pearson married to a charles sumner
not be sure were they married (cumberland /lancashire)
sarah's father was joseph pearson born in 1790
sarah born in 1823 her mother was elizabeth bell born in 1793

\thanks for that, I will have to look into much further than I thought but I am sure it will be worth it. Sometimes when you trace the families and look on the census up and down a few pages it works itself out, as you can see who lived nearby but not this one as yet. I must say you helpers are all fantastic I have had great sucess finding distant relations but my direct lines seem to prov very elusive (typical)
but once again, thank you...regards Lesley

Hi Lesley

I'm glad you're having a rethink - and so am I. Unfortunately, I don't think there's an easy way (or indeed any way) to prove this. You have an Alice Sumner marrying Joseph Vickers who doesn't name a father. This could be that she was illegitimate, but could also be that her father was dead and she simply didn't name him, or he died so long ago she couldn't remember his name. Her mother may even have married again in the meantime (you don't know for sure that it was her mother who married George Pearson unless Alice was a witness to the marriage).

It is true that there is only one Alice Sumner registered in 1840, and she appears with mother Hannah in 1841 age 7 months. It is also true that the two other possibles are with their parents in 1851 and 1861, so presumably knew who their fathers were on marriage (but even so, if they were dead, could have left their names blank).

In a later census she says she's born Farington, which is where your Alice was living in 1841 and where the baptismal certificate says she was living.

So it seems a fair assumption that that is the right Alice. But it is only an assumption.

Then you have the parents of Hannah as being William and Ann. I can see such an entry on the lan-opc site (which seems to have crashed). But just as likely that her mother will be the Betty Sumner on the 1841 census.

In short, unless you get the birth, marriage and death certs of every appropriate Alice and trace them for several years, you will have to make the assumption that you have the right Alice and Hannah. But then I am not sure about Hannah's parentage.

Looks like I will have to work out which birth cert to order for Alice, On her marraige cert the father is left blank...The Hannah and Alice on the lancashire parish online is the only other one that says farrington as does on one of the census after they were married which is why I originally went for that one............lots of digging to do, Thanks to all again...Lesley

To add, someone has the Hannah Sumner who marriies George Pearson as having a father William. That may be true, and as they have an exact date of marriage, it would imply they have the certificate or a parish record entry.

But it still doesn't tell us that that Hannah was the mother of Alice.

You didn't say you had a birth certificate - only baptismal certificates.

Even so, how do you know it's the right Alice?

I am worried about this one.

The 1841 census gives no relationships, so we don't know if the Hannah Sumner aged 20 is a daughter or a daughter in law of Betty, and there is no husband at the house, so we don't know his name. If she is married to a Sumner then she isn't the unmarried mother of Alice.

She could be the Hannah Sumner who then marries George Pearson, but that could be a different Hannah Sumner. Either of them may or may not have been previously married and had a child Alice who died.

It seems pretty certain that the unmarried Hannah Sumner who has Margaret Alice in 1846 is not the woman who married George Pearson, and is not the one who died in 1849. Some other Hannah Sumner had Margaret Alice, and maybe both of them died before the 1851 census.

All we know is that an Alice EDIT Hannah Sumner married a George Pearson and until we have her marriage certificate we don't know anything more about her. Unless, of course, Lesley has the birth certificate of one of their children, which gives mothers maiden name as Sumner. That then rules out a possible widow - but it doesn't tell us who were the parents of Alice.

mARY b, YOU ARE RUGHT ABOUT mARGARET ALICE, I HADNT CHECKED THAT, THEY BOTH LOOKED EXACTLY THE SAME ....SHOULDNT GUESS I SUPPOSE, ALICES BIRTH CERTIFICATE NAMES NO FATHER...LESLEY

Sorry people I had to go out urgently , thANKS FOR ALL REPLIES i WILL READ THEM THROUGH..l.ESLEY

There is this Hannah Sumner born 1821 in Lancs.
1841 Penwortham Lancs district 16 6
Alice Slater born 1756
Betty Sumner 1801
Hannah Sumner 1821
Alice 1840 7 months.
I actually have Lesley's tree available to me,she has Hannah the daughter of William 1781 and Ann Holworth 1775.

Maryb

I haven't looked for the tree that Mary has found, but there is another that has George marrying three times, Hannah being the middle wife, there is an exact date of marriage and her father is named as William by the looks of it - but she could, of course, have lied. This tree has children of George and Hannah as Mary 1844, Ann 1846, Jane 1848, so it is difficult to imagine her having a Margaret Alice b 1846 whilst unmarried.

EDIT, there is no mention on this tree of Alice or Margaret Alice. George marries a third time and has another child with that wife.

Unless, of course, it's a different Hannah Sumner we are looking for.

Would she be likely to name a second daughter Margaret Alice, when the first, Alice, was still living?

Stranger things have happened, but....

Did Alice name a father when she married? What did it say where the father's name should be? If she didn't name a father, then she really could be any one of several Alice Sumners.

I thought hannah Sumner married George Pearson 1817-1892.
They were married 15/5/1842 and had 4 children the first John Pearson 1843-1919,photos of him are on a tree on Ancesrtry.co.uk.

So how did Hannah single woman have margaret Alice in 1846??

Maryb

Will have another look !

Hannahs parents were William and Ann

Thanks I will check these out although I think Alices grandfather was called William and cant trace siblings of Hannah, Alice had also a sister called Margaret alice
Baptisms: 10 May 1846 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Margaret Alice Sumner - Daughter of Hannah Sumner, Single Woman
Abode: Farington
Baptised by: I. Durrant Curate
Register: Baptisms 1837 - 1854, Page 221, Entry 1765
Source: LDS Film 93954

Same mother but she has disappeared aswell

possibly


1851 England Census
Name: Alice Sumner
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1847
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Farington, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Farington
Ecclesiastical parish: Farington St Paul
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Longton
ED, institution, or vessel: 7b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
John Sumner 70
Ann Sumner 24
Margaret Sumner 25
Margery Sumner 22
John Sumner 20
Thomas Sumner 18
Reuben Sumner 10
Alice Sumner 4




Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2264; Folio: 195; Page: 10; GSU roll: 87289.





1861 England Census
Name: Alice Summer
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1846
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Preston, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Walton Le Dale
Ecclesiastical parish: St Leonard
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Preston
Sub-registration district: Walton le Dale
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 135
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Summer 25
Margaret Summer 33
Ann Summer 34
Reuben Summer 19
Alice Summer 15
Isabella Summer 7
Ellen Summer 14
Isabella Summer 13
William Anderton 24
Esther Anderton 36
Hugh Anderton 2
Robert Mansley 5
Elisabeth Mansley 3




Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3141; Folio: 22; Page: 28; GSU roll: 543085.

I have been trying to trace Alice in the years 1851 and 61 to no avail....Her unmarried mother died in 1849 after marrying George Pearson at Penwortham, St. Mary in 1843
Baptisms: 15 Nov 1840 St Andrew, Leyland, Lancashire, England
Alice Sumner - Daughter of Hannah Sumner, Single woman
Abode: Farington
Baptised by: Gardr. Baldwin Vicar
Register: Baptisms 1837 - 1854, Page 92, Entry 736
Source: LDS Film 93954

Can anyone help me please....Alice married Joseph Vickers in St. Pauls Preston. Thank you Lesley