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@lancashireAnn
Yes it is different, the birth date is 9th June 1892 and I wanted 25th May.
I am not certain of the year of her birth. On her marriage certificate , for the 5th April 1920, which I have (and 100% sure it is the correct one) she is shown as 26 years old. This would mean she was born on 25th May 1893. (The 25th May is also correct because my Mum knew her and gave me that date)
This is so disappointing!
Regards

botheration!!

I was convinced that was the right one - as you say - back to square 1

was the birth date different to what you expected as well?

@lancashireAnn
I have now obtained the birth certificate for the Florence May Butler (mmn Butler) mentioned above in your post 27th April 14:28. It is not the correct one unfortunately. (Mothers name on the one is Jane and I am looking for an Ellen)
I think I might be back to square 1!
Regards

this may help

28 July 1914 marriage at Emmanuel, Preston

Albert Appleby 47 widower of 182 Emmanuel St occ = collector, father James Appleby book-keeper

Ellen Holden 43 widow Publican of 21 St Paul's Sq father James Butler (deceased) poultry dealer

Note - 21 St Paul's Sq was the address of the Edinburgh Castle Hotel where Florrie (& Ellen Butler) lived in 1901 & 1911

Thank you. What would be your advice as to the best way to find out what relation she actually was.

sorry David you have lost me there

where did you see Ellen Eccleston's mother's name please

If it is in your summary posting please could you post the link to it as it will be way down the boards by now. You can see it easily as it will shown under your own 'my threads' but we have to search for it

in 1901 when Ellen Butler says she is a relative she could be a distant cousin, closer relatives tended to state the actual relationship


edit

Ok got ellen's mothers name

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1855
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
ECCLESTON Ellen Preston Preston BUTLER PRES/85/39

so Ellen Roper Butler could easily have been a cousin

The plot thickens - or does it?

(See my summary posting from 27th April 2012 at 17:12)
I have just noticed that Ellen Eccleston's mothers maiden name is Butler.
Does that suggest that there is a previous tie up with the Butler family.
Looking back, when Ellen R Butler is shown on the 1901 census, she is listed as working as a Barmaid and a relative to the head of the family!

parish registers, both originals and filmed copies, are frequently held at the relevant county record office

Quite a lot are online for certain counties but not the one you want

Oh, I see. So you can check the parish registers?

the info on the certificate is the same as recorded in the parish registers

@lancashireAnn
That would be great but I thought you had to get the certificates to see that type of thing.

you're welcome David - I like a puzzle

I will see what I can do next week to look at the Appleby marriage in the registers to see if Ellen's father is named as Butler or Eleen is named as formerly Butler, late Holden

I feel that this has been a very successful exercise and I have tried to summarise the findings below. I think it is facscinating but complicated!

On the 1901 census for the Edinburgh castle Hotel in Preston, the following people are listed:
- John R Holden is the Publican, Married aged 42
- Ellen Holden, wife aged 44
- Richard Holden, Son aged 20
- Ellen R Butler, Barmaid aged 31
- Florence Holden, daughter aged 9

On the 1911 census for the same pub, the following people are listed:
- Ellen Holden, is the Publican, widow, aged 41
- Florence Holden, Daughter aged 19
- Elizabeth Butler, Mother aged 75.

However and the clue appears to be the age of Ellen.
The Ellen shown on the 1911 census as a widow is not the same Ellen that was the wife in 1901.

because:-
In 1902 Ellen Holden, the wife died aged 45.
In 1905 (2nd Qtr) John R Holden married the barmaid Ellen R Butler.
In 1905 (3rd Qtr) John R Holden died.

It appears that Florence Holden was born as Florence May Butler in 1892 and is the daughter of John R Holden and Ellen R Butler. (This will need to be checked from her Birth Certificate)

Ellen R Holden married Albert Appleby in 1914.
Ellen (Roper) Appleby died in Blackpool, Feb 1954, aged 84.

Thank you to all who have helped me, in particular Chris Ho and especially lancashireAnn.

Might be worth a check in 'Search Trees' at top of page David.

Chris :)

there is this one which is in the right qtr - lancsbmd shows mmn as Butler

Births Jun 1892 (>99%)
Butler Florence May Preston 8e 646

@lancashireAnn
I think I had come to that conclusion as well. I need to get her birth certificate to confirm that but I am not sure how to get it and be sure it is correct. I know (for certain) that her birthday was 25th May.

another thought that struck me

we cannot find a Florrie or Florence Holden born in Preston with mmn = Eccleston (like Richard's) and all births registered in Preston on lancsbmd have mmn

was Ellen Roper Butler in reality Florries mother and Florrie was actually born Flo Butler but brought up as Holden. Ellen Butler was already living in the pub before Florries birth so she could be the illegitimate child of John Holden & Ellen Butler

@Chris Ho
@lancashireAnn
This is starting to make some sense even though it is incredibly complex. I have just checked the death record for Ellen Appleby (because she went on to marry Albert Appleby) in 1954 and it does quote her as Ellen R which would tie in with the marriage posted by Ann. I know for a fact that she died in Feb 1954 and her birthday was 1st September. I think I will have a go at summarising all this later.
Thank you both very much. Maybe I have been a bit too close to all of this to realise what had actually happened.

David, her Mothers surname is Butler, Ellen was previously Ellen Roper Butler...

(take another look at Ann's postings, she has given you the Marriage details)

Chris :)

@Chris
Regarding your post of today at 10:52.
I am wondering though if that could indicate that Ellen Holden's maiden name was possibly Butler because Elizabeth Butler is the shown as the mother to Ellen Holden but Holden was Ellen's married name so her mother would not be a Holden.