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Thank Will have a go with those two options, will keep you informed.
Thank You
Tracy

No problem - glad it's OK now.

You ask about which cert(s) to get?

IF it can be traced, Joseph's birth cert would be a good start. It will tell you his mother's name, thus giving you a clearer idea of timings. I say IF because until 1875, there were no penaltes for not registering births

If his mother is Martha, the 1870 death is quite likely to be the right person.

If, however, it's Eliza, that would mean a re-think, but at least you'd know her maiden name.

EDIT:

Just had a thought - Joseph's baptism may be on the Ancestry records - I'm unable to help there, as I only have the basic sub, and the baptisms aren't included.

But there's at least one person on GR offering to do lookups - you could perhaps try to find the thread.

Yes sorry you did you sent the message as i sent mine.
Thank you once again.
Tracy

I thought I'd answered your query about 1881.

To clarify - those alongside the names are birthplaces

The address at which they were living is in the block of text below the names.

Flick
how would you suggest i go forward with this now? certificates? if so which ones, also on my post above from Ann what do the address refer to Thanks sorry i no you are all busy. xx

Those are birthplaces in 1881 - cross-refer with other censuses

Don't take it as fact without verifying

As I said, my postings are speculative

Flick
Thanks, So Martha did die and he remarried in the same Year this is great.

Ann
The 1881

Fredick NAPPER Head M Male 57 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer
Eliza NAPPER Wife M Female 53 Norfolk, England
Angness NAPPER Daur U Female 21 London, London, Middlesex, England
James NAPPER Son U Male 18 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer
Joseph NAPPER Son Male 13 London, London, Middlesex, England Scholar

What do the address relate to please.

This is going to take a while to input the brain you lot are so fast,
Thank you

Yes thats the one i have for Joesph, he is my husband great grandfather its his father i am haveing the problems with? was just wondering if the 1851 frederick napper was possible the right one? was unawear of the 1861 damages that answer a few problems with other family members Thanks for that, sorry slow typing. x

FREDERICK NAPPER Pedigree
Male
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 10 FEB 1805 Saint Katherine Coleman, London, London, England
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Parents:
Father: WILLIAM NAPPER Family
Mother: SARAH
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Speculation

Deaths Mar 1870 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Napper Martha 41 Mile End 1c 413


Marriages Dec 1870 (>99%)
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MORAN Winefred St Geo East 1c 1010
Napper Frederick St Geo East 1c 1010
PITTS Thomas Daniel St Geo East 1c 1010
RUMSBY Eliza St. Geo. East 1c 1010

FREDER. NAPPER Pedigree
Male
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 11 JUL 1829

Christening: 08 MAY 1831 St Mary Whitechapel, Stepney, London, England
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: FREDER. NAPPER Family
Mother: ELIZ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

1871

Name: Frederick Napper
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England
Civil parish: St Mary Whitechapel
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Whitechapel Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 83
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Napper 41
Eliza Napper 42 born SWAFFHAM NORFOLK
Frederick Napper 21
Richard Napper 18
William Napper 15
Martha Napper 13
Agnes Napper 10
James Napper 6
Emma Napper 5
Joseph Napper 3

1881

Frederick NAPPER Head W Male 76 London City Of Aldgate, London, Middlesex, England Clerk Starch Factory
John MAY Son In Law M Male 35 St Giles, Devon, England Farrier
Lucy MAY Wife M Female 38 Mile End, Middlesex, England
Frederick MAY Grandson Male 10 St Giles, Devon, England


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 156 Wilmott St
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341092
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0424 / 42
Page Number 68

Posting 1851 - names and ages are not enough, really, Birthplaces are necessary

Name: Frederick Napp
[Frederick Napper]
Age: 21
Estimated birth year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Martha
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitechapel, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub-registration district: Church
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 187
Household Members: Name Age
Frederick Napp 21
Martha Napp 22 born HACKNEY
Frederick Napp 4 born BETHNAL GREEN (Age is unclear)

1881

Fredick NAPPER Head M Male 57 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer
Eliza NAPPER Wife M Female 53 Norfolk, England
Angness NAPPER Daur U Female 21 London, London, Middlesex, England
James NAPPER Son U Male 18 London, London, Middlesex, England Labourer
Joseph NAPPER Son Male 13 London, London, Middlesex, England Scholar


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling No 3 Eastman Street
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341092
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0425 / 27
Page Number 48

Many 'pieces' of 1861 are unavailable due to damge etc, etc.

They seem mainly to be for the Home Counties, so could explain your not finding your relations in that year

Can find Joseph Napper born 1867in 1901 census age 34 born stepney
1891 census is married to annie Napper
1881 census with parents Frederick and Eliza
1871 census with parents aged 3, and with 8 other family members
1861 can not find any of them
1851 found Frederick Napp (Napper) married to a Martha with a baby frederick listed as 4 but i think this maybe 4months due to marthas age was wondering if Martha died and Frederick remarried to eliza and had the other children.
sorry sounds a bit mixed up,
Thank you for any help.