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thank you all, I believe I have enough to get on with now!! cannot believe that you all worked so hard to help!! thanks again
Lynn

Hi Lynn,
I think I'm just going to leave this info here in case it fits in somehow. I need a break from your family!!
1891 Ancestry
Name: Stephen Martin
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey
Civil parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Luke
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Household schedule number: 44
Household Members:
Name Age
William Dawson 52
Ellen Dawson 48
Stephen Martin 18
Francis Martin 16 niece
Albert White 28
Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 390; Folio: 7; Page: 6

Marriages Jun 1873 (>99%)
DAWSON William Thomas St Olave 1d 349
DRUMMOND Ellen St. Olave 1d 349

Name: William Thomas Dawson
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Spouse Name: Ellen Drummond
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 May 1873
Parish: St Luke, Bermondsey
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: William Thomas Dawson
Spouse Father Name: Cornelius Drummond
Best,
Maureen

1871 the father?Name: Nicholas Drumoy
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Hunah
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalen
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Leather Market


Household Members:
Name Age
Nicholas Drumoy 50
Hunah Drumoy 45
Margaret Drumoy 13


??1851
DRUMOND

Name: Nicholas Drumond
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1823
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Household Members:
Name Age
Nicholas Drumond 28
Hannah Drumond 26
Mary A Drumond 3
Hannah Drumond 2
Ellen Drumond 1 Mo

Maureen

I am convinced that your 1881 census is right, let me help you,
to start with my research I have Stephen Martin dob as 27/11/1881 but he was not registered until 17/01/1882. As I posted before the address was 13 Smiths Gardens, Bermondsey. I know for a fact that Stephen is my great grandfather as from the 1911 census. My grandad was George of the 1911 census, Stephens age on the 1911 census is 90 making the brith about right!. All the occupations and addresses seem to match and I do believe that Mary Ann maiden name was DRUMMEY and not Drummond as stated on Stephens Birth cert, think it could have been a script typo!!!
This was the object of my help posting as I really needed someone to come up with the same findings!!

To make matters worse,the only likely child I can find in 1891 is:
1891 Ancestry
Name: Ellen Martin
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Paddock Wood, Kent, England
Civil parish: Bermondsey
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Leather Market
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Household Members:
Name Age
Joseph Harris 40
Hannah Harris 40
Ellen Martin 17
Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 371; Folio 107; Page 16

On the 1911 Joseph and Hannah say they've been married for 35 years.

Marriages Sep 1876
Dummy Ann St. Olave 1d 391
HARRIS Joseph St Olave 1d 391

Name: Ann Dummy
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Spouse Name: Joseph Harris
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 23 Jul 1876
Parish: St Luke, Bermondsey
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Nicholas Dummy
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Harris

Here we go again!!!

Maureen

Maureen

Thank you - I think you have found the right family as on Stephens birth cert the address is 13 Smiths Gardens (looks like Smitts) in 1881, so that means that Stephen was one of the youngest and as I posted before the only marriage between a Goerge Martin and a Mary Ann was in 1872, that would be about right as the youngest was born in 1874 according to 1881 census but again the surname Drummond and Martin has no recorded marriage around that time only the surname Drummey and Martin, again still a mystery!

??


1881 census transcription details for: 13, Smiths Gardens, Bermondsey
National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG11 Piece: 560 Folio: 18 Page: 31

Reg. District: St Olave Southwark Sub District: Leather Market
Parish: Bermondsey Enum. District:
Ecclesiastical District: City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 13, Smiths Gardens, Bermondsey County: Surrey

MARTIN, Geo Head M 37 1844 Labourer Yalding
Kent
MARTIN, Mary Wife F 32 1849 Bermondsey
Surrey
MARTIN, Elen Daughter F 7 1874 Yalding
Kent
MARTIN, Mary Daughter F 4 1877 Yalding
Surrey
MARTIN, Hannah Daughter F 2 1879 Yalding
Kent
MARTIN, George Son M 1 1880 Yalding
Kent

Maureen

what was his fathers occp. on cert?

Sorry to ask,but how do you know you have the right Stephen Martin if you've not seen him on a census and don't know if he had siblings?
Also,what was George's occupation?

Maureen

if this helps everyone!
Information from Stephens Martins' Birth Certificate:
DOB: 27/11/1881
Father: George Martin
Mother: Mary Ann Martin (formerly Drummond) this is the problem I have!!
Signature of Mother is as: M.A. Martin of Smittes Garden, Long Lane, Bermondsey.
Registered birth on the 17/01/1882 at Saint Olave Southwark - sub districe of The Leather Market, County of Surrey

Hi Jonesey
Thank you, for your help, I think I may have confused you all, Stephen Martin was born on the 27.11.1881 and according to his birth certificate that I have his parents did not register him until 17.01.1882, so with BMD the index's are recorded as to when the birth was recorded not neccessary when they were born. The Volume is 1d and the page is 217 in Jan/Feb/Mar 1882. there you will find my Stephen Martin - place of birth The Leather Market, Saint Olave, Southwark.
Thanks again for all your help.

Could you give us the details from Stephen's birth certificate please??

Maureen
Edit: Sorry,Jonesey,you snuck that one in on me!

Hi Jansmith

Thank you for that but I have already research the census's and I do not believe that this is the same family as I know for a fact that Stephen was born in 1881 and if it was only a years difference then I could possibly assume it is the same family.

the couple who's marriage you found same people as above?
Name: George Martin
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1872
Spouse Name: Mary Ann Drummey
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 26 Oct 1872
Parish: St Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey
County: Middlesex
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Alfred Martin
Spouse Father Name: Nicolas Drummey

1891 is this the family?
Name: Stephen Martin
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: M A
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, London, England
Civil parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England


Name: George Martin
Age: 40
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: M A
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, London, England
Civil parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: London



Name: M A Martin
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1852
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Rotherhithe, London, England
Civil parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: London


Name: Sarah A Martin
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George
Mother's Name: M A
Gender: Female
Where born: Rotherhithe, London, England
Civil parish: St George in The East
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary

Yes - I have considered that and have search marriages in the name of Mary Ann Drummond, and there is rather a lot of them. Unfortunately I do not know of any siblings of Stephen!. I have no other means of finding out!

According to my great grandfather Stephen Martin's birth certicate of 1881 - his parents were George Martin and Mary Ann Drummond, I have been trying to search the marriage of George Martin and Mary Ann Drummond - No Luck!! - The only marriage I can find is that of a Mary Ann Drummey and George Martin in 1872. I know that surnames can be mis- spelt on index's etc., but I have a copy of my Stephen Martin Birth certificate. Hope someone can help!