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Update on the birth certificate for Jenny Hepton b 1919 in Fremantle Australia.
Today I received her copy birth cert from Perth, Registry Births Death;Marriages.
Everything ties in nicely to my family.
It is a very detailed cert. with age of mother giving birth, where the parents were born, any other children born or deceased. The date of the parents marriage
Really great for us amateur family historians.
So thank you once again for all your help.

Hello, Thought I would give an update as to my ordering Jenny Jordan's birth cert, from Australia.
Sue, on Genes, gave me the website to order.
I sent the downloaded form to Perth, Western Australia, B.D.M
I enclosed a cheque for £20 sterling hoping that would be enough to cover the cost,
Today I received a letter with the returned cheque.They could not accept this as payment it has to be in Australian Dollars.
There was a form attached where I had to fill in my credit card details But I was not keen on this as I did not feel it safe to have this info in a letter all the way to OZ.
Another option was to have a bank draft, which I did.
Filled in the form for $31as the cost of the certificate. The bank informed me they charge £10 for this service. The Bank Draft will take 5-10 working days to arrive. Then I will have to post off to OZ again and wait another week or so for the certificate to arrive.
Total amount paid was £25 63.
I do hope it is the correct one when I do receive it. I will let you know.
Anne

Hi,
As you say there were no official adoptions till , I think 1927, in England and one could easily have taken in an orphan or perhaps an illegitimate child and brought up as their own.

The Bernardo's theory is quite possible as my relative in Canada did find a Norman Hepton listed on a 1898 Canadian, Pas.List.
He is listed as one of Dr Barnordo's Boys, destination, Russell, Manitoba. [She thinks his father died in 1896, so he may well have been put in the home and then returned to England where he married Jane in 1906.] If he is the correct Norman Hepton that is.

She goes on, the town mascot of Russell is a cow and our Norman Hepton [b 1882c Sunderland father Edward] is listed as Cowhand on 1911 census, England.
Norman is then found noted as a Farm Hand going to Fremantle in 1913 with his family.

My relative sent me an article about the Barnardo's Boys in the Toronto Star dated Dec 2009 with a story about Charles Tyler, along with 2 brothers were shipped to Canada at the age of 11.
Many were not orphans and had left parents behind. Charlie says Canada has been good to him and after 50 years there he is a real Canadian now.
Sad to read.

In Aus. the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has apologised for the suffering they endured .It seems Gordon Brown plans to make an apology also sometime this year.

I do not know much about the Jordan side but they did live in Canada for generations as far as I am aware.
I have sent all your info onto my relative and await the reply.

As the War was just over there would have been many orphans also.

Thanks for all your help and if anything comes up further I will add to this post.
Anne

You know, another possibility occurs ... if Sarah and her husband had been unable to have children, Sarah might simply have "adopted" a child (there was no formal adoption in England at that time) from a care facliility like Barnardo's and returned to Canada with the child. Family resemblances can often be seen where there is no relationship. If you saw a photo of the family of a former partner of mine, you would swear there was a direct line from grandfather to father to son -- except the son was the father's stepson, and the grandfather was the father's stepfather. ;)

I am quite sure that no medical records would have survived from 1920ish to now, unfortunately. But just think, now that Ontario is going electronic (and we're behind the rest of the world in this, except the US of course), our descendants will be able to find out all about us!

Do you know about the Jordan family? Where from in England, when immigrated to Canada, etc.? Just in case I need to find something to avoid work with sometime. ;)

Hi,
Thank you again for your time looking into this puzzle.
Hope you have had time to replenish your appetite and feel much better.

You have found the correct birth for Sarah and also in the censuses.
I am descended from John T Proudman age 10 noted in the 1881 census.

The 1891 with Elizabeth A Widenhouse daughter in law, has been wrongly transcribed. The surname is WOODHOUSE. Elizabeth is Sarah's sister who is noted in the 1881 age 14. She married Charles Woodhouse.

Like you I had thought Sarah might have married in England and had a child as I could not find her in the 1911 census under Proudman.
I have searched for a marriage. There is one in 1908 , West Bromwich,to either Philip Richards or Alfred Capewell. Without actually ordering the marriage cert I cannot be sure.
If it was Sarah, would she not have travelled as a MRS ???? if she had been married?

Sarah travelled to Canada by her maiden name, Spinster, in July 1912 travelling alone.
So where was she in 1911 ? Was she travelling at that time?

WA Jordan was born in 1887, Nova Scotia.died in 1968. [maybe Carol was from the Jordan side and not the Proudman side]
The adopted son Harold b 1922 died in 1941 in a motor accident.

Not sure how far the search went to find our where Carol was born.
The link

http://www.ontario.ca/en/information_bundle/individuals/119276.
I will pass on to Carol's daughter who I'm sure will take it further, as only she can.

I was wondering if she may able to access her mother Medical History from her Doctor,
This may hold some info regarding any pregnancies, or letters that Sarah may have needed in any adoption.

Another thought I had was if Carol had been adopted around 1920/1 then Sarah would possible go through the same channels to adopt Harold b 1922.

I also searched her sisters [ possibly dying in childbirth] and brothers children but none fitted the birth date

regards
Anne

I'm hungry and out of cigarettes so I'm gonna be brief for now. ;) Just adding this from your PM:

"We have Sarah's original Passport as Sarah Jordan with dates Nov 12 1919 travelling to England.from Canada. Also 22 Jan 1920, stating, travelling to Canada direct or via U S America."

because I had wondered how long Sarah had been in England and whether it was long enough to have a kid who wasn't her husband's. ;) Seems not!

Was WA Jordan born in England? Any chance *he* had left a child behind? Sarah and he did have no children of their own - two adopted? They were older parents - Sarah was nearly 40 when she brought Carol home?

Births Mar 1881
PROUDMAN Sarah Northwich 8a 277

There's one William Alexander H Jordan born 1872 Prescot, so I suspect yours was born in Canada. ... Although there's no marriage or death for that name in England.

Did Sarah travel to Canada with anyone when she first immigrated in 1912?


Has Carol's daughter ever actually requested a search of Ontario records? She's a child of the deceased so is entitled to do that.

http://www.ontario.ca/en/information_bundle/individuals/119276

I would talk to someone in the reg gen's office about having a search by her name, parents' names, etc.



1881 for ref, in Wharton, Cheshire

John Proudman 36
Ann Proudman 32
Elizabeth Proudman 14
Alfred Proudman 12
John T. Proudman 10
James Proudman 5
Emma Proudman 3
Sarah Proudman - born Wharton


1891 in Wharton

John Proudman 45
Ann Proudman 43
James Proudman 15
Sarah Proudman 10 - born Wharton
Jane Proudman 7
Agnes Proudman 4
Mary L Proudman 2
Elizabeth A Widenhouse 24 - daughter-in-law
Mary L Widenhouse 6/12


1901 in Middlesbrough, Yorkshire

James Proudman 25
Mary Proudman 22
Thomas Proudman 1
Sarah Proudman 20 - sister, born Winsford, Cheshire

Hi Janey,
Thank you for your time trying to trace Jenny Hepton and for all your advise.
Jenny Hepton is the daughter of Sarah's sister Jane Proudman who married Norman Hepton. They went to Australia and we found them incoming from Fremantle in 1921 with their 2 sons and Jenny.
My relative, through stories her family told her about an accident at sea in the family , that maybe the family had died and only Jenny survived. Then possibly Sarah took on her sister's child as her own.
The only reason Carol thought she was adopted was this neighbour in Canada she met at a funeral who told her so.[ I did say to my relative, the neighbour may be wrong]. But Carol not having a proper birth cert may have added doubts that she was maybe adopted.
The birth cert. for Jenny Hepton, I have ordered from Perth to day is to confirm [my thoughts] that her parents were Norman Hepton and Jane Proudman. [ I think I have found a marriage for her {Jenny Hepton} also in England , helping to confirm Carol is not Jenny.]
We have traced all the siblings of the family who were originally from Cheshire. Some moved to Middlesbrough, some to Durham others abroad to USA Canada, Australia.
I have found the death of Jane nee Proudman , Norman Hepton and their 2 sons and marriages for them in England.
Sarah Proudman b 1881 Cheshire married in Canada in 1914 to William Alexander Jordan.
I cannot find Sarah Proudman in the 1911 census
My relative has Sarah [who is her grandmother] in the Immigration Pas list July 1912 to Nova Scotia.Then 1913 Border crossing from Canada to USA to visit brother Alfred in Buffalo. Oct 1913 back in Vanceboro, Maine.
In Feb1920 we have Sarah [now married] Jordan returning from England to Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
If I can figure our how to send a personal message i can give you some more info on Carol.
thank in the meantinme
Anne

Stupid me, you did give a name.

This is the only Jenny Hepton birth in the English index (although Jenny could be a nickname)

Births Jun 1888
HEPTON Jenny Wandsworth 1d 573


Here she is with family in 1901 in Battersea - no sister Sarah

Thomas F Hepton 42
Jane Hepton 40
Dora Hepton 14
Jennie Hepton 13
Frank E Hepton 11
James Hepton 49

There is another in 1901 in Sunderland

Jane Hepton 42
Jenny Hepton 16
Eleanor Hepton 14
Hannah Hepton 7
Margaret Beadles 19

again no sister Sarah.

They are the only two Jen* Heptons in 1891 also, with no sisters Sarah. Neither is in the 1911 so they have married.

There's no birth of a Carol with mother Hepton 1918-1920.

In 3rd quarter 1919 there are two female births with mother Hepton, both in Yorkshire:

Births Sep 1919
Hepton Lilian Hepton Bedale 9d 1117 (mother not married)
- a marriage for that name in 1942 is accounted for by a birth in 1923, there is a marriage in 1936 that could be this Lilian

Tindall Mona Hepton Sculcoates 9d 275
- she married in 1938


Just guessing, but the most likely two births for your Sarah, assuming she was born in England, are in Sculcoates in 1895 and 1901.

There are two Tindall-Hepton marriages

Marriages Dec 1894
Hepton Sarah Ann Sculcoates 9d 394
Marriages Mar 1897
Hepton Caroline Frances Sculcoates 9d 176

There are four Hepton-Tindall births after 1911 (when mother's surname is shown in the index), 1912 Hull and 1912, 1916 and 1919 Sculcoates.


You may well have done these searches before!

Can I ask how Carol thought that her mother was Jenny?

Hi Anne, Canuck here. ;)

I'm searching my brain trying to remember where I recently saw one of these late-issued "birth certificate"s. I think it was on the Nova Scotia genealogy site but that may be way off. And I think you're right, it was issued federally rather than the normal way, by the province of the birth. It was issued on a declaration by the person concerned.

Carol was born 1920 and at that time immigration to Canada was still a relatively informal affair, particularly for those coming from the UK. Not like today, where to get an OHIP card for health insurance you have to prove identity and right of residence to the nth degree. I don't think a child entering school in the 20s would have had to prove much.

http://www.edukits.ca/multiculturalism/student/timeline_e.html
"1919 – A new Immigration Act is passed at the end of the First World War that formalizes immigration guidelines based on ethnic race and culture. Immigrants whose ideological beliefs are considered unacceptable by the Canadian government can be excluded from Canada."

Carol's "de facto" mother might have just said, on re-entering Canada, that the child was hers.

Do you have surnames that you think might be possible for Carol's birth surname? Does she think Carol was her original name? Do you know where in England Sarah came from - she was born in England? married where?

These obviously aren't things you want to put on the board here, or I would assume so anyway. But maybe Sarah herself is long ago and far away enough that we could do some searching here about her? To see what sisters she had, for starters - it could be relatively easy to find out - and try to trace those sisters forward to see whether there is a record of their marriages and deaths in England - and any children they may have had.

Thanks Sue for your message.
I have now managed to download the completed application form for Birth Cert. for Jenny Hepton, from the link you gave. It is now on it's way to Perth.
Thought you may be interested in the reason for searching for Jenny Hepton.
My relative in Canada believed this Jenny to be her mother.
In the early 1960's, while attending a funeral in her old home town her mother, Carol, was approached by an elderly neighbour who told her she had been adopted. The neighbour remembered her mother [ Carol] aged about 2 brought to Canada back from one of her mother's trips to England, where she visited family quite often. The neighbour believed her to be a family member as she had seen a resemblance in Sarah.
Carol was about 42 at the time, had never been told by her mother she was adopted, so it was a shock.
Carol's mother Sarah was now dead so she could not ask questions. Her father who was in the early stages of dementia gave sketchy answers, one of Sarah's sisters, Australia., died at sea. He had thrown lots of papers etc out after his wife Sarah died.
My relative has searched over a long period of time for answers and had believed Jenny to be her mother.
Now I have blown her theory of of the window.
Sarah did adopted a boy in 1922 whom she told had been adopted. He had been the son of a cook in a near by town. But why had she not told Carol.

Carol only new her birthday was Sep 1919. It seems there was no birth certificate for her. One was issued later [ Iam not sure when though] by the Canadian Government on the reasoning that Carol had lived, went to nursery and school in that area.

We have been searching passenger ships from England hoping to find Sarah with a child returning to Canada but have been unsuccessful so far.
We wonder where can we go from here!!! The search will go on to try to solve this mystery.

Would she have needed a birth certificate to go to nursery and school?

Anne

Sorry for starting the new thread, I did not realise it was wrong.
Thank you for all the help received from everyone here.

I did try the link Sue suggested but cannot access it for some reason, "Page not available" pops up.
Will keep trying though.
Cheers
Anne

Hi Janey

I agree ,everything is useful at sometime.lol

Cheers Sue

Aha, so 75 years there, 100 in NSW ...

Cdn provinces seem to stick by 100 years for births, with varying periods for marriages and deaths.

Thanks! It's just stuff that's useful to know when you're poking around abroad. ;)

Hi Ann

Not a problem.Seem to be another Hepton family in W.A at the time having children.

Cheers Sue

Hi Janey

Here is the answer to your question

Privacy Considerations and Personal Records
Certificates held by the Registry contain sensitive and personal
information. However the Registry allows unrestricted access
for the issue of certificates of:-

Births which occurred more than 75 years ago;
Deaths which occurred more than 25 years ago;
Marriages which occurred more than 60 years ago.

In recognition of the fact that fraudulent use of certificates
reduces with the age of the record, identification requirements
for the above unrestricted certificates will not be required.

Cheers Sue

Patricia, my understanding is that most Australian states have privacy legislation similar to Canadian provinces -- registration data is not accessible by the public for 100 years as a general rule. This is the case for NSW, e.g.

Of course the Jenny Hepton 1919 record was accessible on line, I'm just curious whether the certificate can be ordered up by anybody at all. ;)

(I like our Canadian privacy rules and I think the Australian states that have similar ones are wise to do it too.)

Birth registrations in Western Australia go back to the first official settlement in 1829, so birth certs should be available back that far.
Tricia (WA)

Anne you should not start new threads about the same thing, it's against the rules.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1197172

You're lucky Sue saw this new message. All you had to do was ask her in your existing thread and she would have been sure to see it. And it's lucky no one else who had no idea about the first thread went helpfully looking for the birth info for you.

Query, Sue - is it possible to get birth certs from the last hundred years for WA? Not in NSW for instance I know (same here in Canada). A descendant could prove relationship and the person's death, if that's the case?

Thank you once again Sue, will do that now. take care
Anne

Hi Anne

If you go to this site

http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx?uid=9125-2873-5779-1388

Type in the name for birth,then press order.
The form will automatically be filled in .You will have to send it to the address on the form as there is no on line facility.
It will cost about sixteen pounds.

Cheers Sue

Can anyone advise me where I can order a birth certificate for Jenny Hepton born in Fremantle Australia in 1919. Can it be done online?
Thank you to Sue on Genes for finding this birth for me.
Anne