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Hi Astra, another interesting twist, many thanks for passing info on
Do you have a shovel?? Thank you

John and Lancelot 1871. I think this is the one you were looking for. Sorry no shovel here. It's worn out from over work!

John Balmer
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1867
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Lancelot
Mother's Name: Ruth
Gender: Male
Where born: Penrith, Cumberland, England
Civil parish: Penrith
Town: Penrith
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Penrith
Sub-registration district: Penrith
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Household schedule number: 18
Household Members: Name Age
Lancelot Balmer 42
Ruth Balmer 34
Lancelot Balmer 6
John Balmer 4
Anne M Balmer 1

And Lancelots household in 1911

BALMER, Lancelot Head Married M 46 1865 Railway Storekeeper Pemith Cumberland VIEW
BALMER, Annie Wife Married
17 years F 35 1876 Cockermouth Cumberland VIEW
BALMER, Eleanor Daughter F 7 1904 Workington Cumberland VIEW
BALMER, Ruth Daughter F 6 1905 Greysouthen Cumberland VIEW

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Registration District:
Cockermouth Sub District:
Workington EnumerationDistrict:
20 Parish:
Workington

Address:
27 Clay Street Workington

Name: Edith Ann Tredwell
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Spouse Name: John Balmer Occ: Butler
Spouse Age: 29
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 20 Jun 1896
Parish: Saint Stephen, West Ealing
County: Middlesex
Borough: Ealing
Father Name: Alfred Tredwell Occ: Carpenter
Spouse Father Name: Lancelot Balmer deceased Occ: Blacksmith

Maureen

In 1881 John is shown in the Union Workhouse.
In 1891 he is a domestic servant...........possibly butler but not noted as such in Acton Middlesex
In 1901 he is a Foreign Fruit Seller in Hammersmith and married to Edith

Astra - thank you for going that extra mile
Maureen, your input has confirmed a lot for me, thank you all